Is the Warden a Trail Boss?

So here is a toy that was lent to me for the week. Looks fun - can't wait to try it!



Including PUSH Industries elevensix shock:
http://www.pushindustries.com/products/elevensix-1

And MRP Stage Fork:
http://www.mrpbike.com/stage/

He also included a brand new Cane Creek DB Air Inline, that I can switch to after I get my jollies on the Plush PUSH.

Being an ambassador has its perks! Quick test run tomorrow after work. Report to follow. :thumbup:

 

Nice! Looks like just what the Hrz Dr ordered.
Looking forward to the RR and see how you like it. One problem though, it doesn't have the latest new fangled shifty thingy on the front.

But hey, after riding with a 1x on that It suits me well. As long as I'm not hammering on the road... :?

 

26 4 lyfe! What's this 650b stuff?

Sweet setup for sure. I wanted an Ohlins TTX on my E29, if I decided to really go all out on my setup, but at this point I rather have it on my SJ 26 Evo. ELEVENSIX fully customized for the bike, rider, and riding style, with 2 distinct tuning profiles (flowy, fast, with big hits for one, and slow techy, chunky, for the other maybe), sounds even better. I actually have a BOS Deville now, to try over my Pike RCT3 (great performing fork), and I wonder how much better the Deville can be. I put it on my Yeti and noticed the rebound knob sticker was backwards, and found out just how huge the rebound adjustment was. Felt like a slightly older Fox, honestly, including the stiction, with a racy/sporty tune for control, rather than comfort, but the super low maintenance of the open bath system was kind of appealing, though it is a reason behind its extra heft.

Screw that CC DB Inline. I'm not really a fan of the one I have. I think I actually busted mine on that cratered jump I posted a video of. Sometimes feels like there's a clunk at sag as if something loose inside is getting hit, and the HSR knob feels like there's only 3.5 turns instead of 4.5 turns (pretty sure it had 4.5 turns when I first got it). Was making a soggy shoe sound for my next ride after the SS trip. Wasn't happy at all with the base tune either for the Enduro29. Added 3 more volume spacers in there to get more ramp up, but still not enough. Half a turn more HSC and still not what I need, with LSC still at 12 clicks in. I lightened up the rebound damping, figuring I'm lightweight and to make sure it's not packing up, since it does seem to return slow, but still not good. Air pressure was the first thing I fiddled with. With these settings to try and get the big hit capability I want, you can probably guess it felt like poo on the trail, with my feet rattling off my pedals in the rough and braking bumps feeling terrible. I just gave up on big hit absorption and put it closer to the base tune for smooth trail riding. Trying to figure out what the sound and clunk feeling is from, just bouncing on it for a minute inside the garage with no airflow heats up the shock a lot.

 

So after ride #1, here are my thoughts.

Test route: 5-Oaks, Cholla, Rock-It in Aliso.

Findings:

I9 Wheels roll slow. I could feel the pawls dragging and I did not coast nearly as fast as with my DT Swiss, even though the wheels were bigger. (Maxxis HR II rear)

The $1200 elevensix shock is cool, but I wouldn't pay that much money for it. It was amazing on small stuff, but it did not erase braking bumps. It was very similar to my Avalanche'd Fox CTD on the stutter bumps, but three times the cost.

The MRP Stage fork is not as plush or as accurate as my Marzocchi 55, despite its 170mm of travel. Perhaps I was running too much air, but I used most of the travel. I got knocked off line on Rock-It several times and had to slow down more than I expected. For my next ride, I will run less air, and adjust the ramp up setting to prevent dive.

The Guide brakes? Nope. My XTR Trails are far more powerful, and I find the modulation to be very predictable.

1x11? I actually did OK climbing the nearly 30lb beast up Cholla with a 32 front and the 42 rear. Drop 1/2 lb by going to the CC-inline and climbing should be even more tolerable. I did find myself hunting for more top end at the top of Rock-It, but that's fine.

So what did I like? It was great side-to-side. I love the lateral stiffness and manners of a Knolly frame. Great handling bike and dialed geometry. The Minion DHF at 2.35 was much wider than my DHF 2.35, and was very cool - same great carving, but more plushy plush. The shock was pretty cool, and its possibilities are endless. The lockout was set as a true lock out which is great for climbing roads, but what's cool is both circuits are infinitely tune-able - you can decide how you want each circuit to run. I could have a little more "give" in the lockout and a little more plush in the open setting, or do whatever I want. Set it plush in one setting for steep, rooty, rocky nasty stuff, and set the other circuit more firm for popping off jumps or getting a quick burst of power to the pedals.

I plan to do two more rides on the beast, one of which will be with the Cane Creek Inline shock. Judging by the initial interest in this thread, I am guessing all of IMTB's 600+ members will be waiting with baited keyboards for the future reports. OK, actually, there were only two people mildly interested, but I'll pretend there are more.

 

Not my cup of tea, but I still love reading these. Keep 'em coming...


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Mildly interesting is good. I like my tacos mild too, and I really like tacos....

First impression a good read, I want to read the second/third impression too!

 

Not necessarily my cup of tea either but wow an honest review that tells what was liked and what wasn't with his reasons and without sugar coating it. Thanks Herz :thumbup:

 

I trust you will be with me for one or both of those rides. :wave:

 

That's a safe assumption. Want to see it in person.

 

Round 2 - Aliso with Dave (Knucklebuster). Route: Coyote to Cholla, Up Cholla, Down Rock-It, up to 5 Oaks, down 5-Oaks, "down" Coyote, up Mathis to ToW, over to Meadows, down Meadows and back to the car. 16 mi. 2600'

Weather: AWESOME! Cloudy, slight breeze, 68-70*

After thinking about why I was getting knocked off-line on Rock-It on my first ride (Wednesday), I decided I probably had too much air in my front tire (30psi - tubeless) as well as too much air in the fork, so I reduced both.

The front end:
It was definitely better on R-I today, and I hit my lines without getting knocked around, but it still wasn't as plush as my current steed, and my hands still got a lot of feedback from a bouncing front end. The rebound setting was correct. MRP suggested about 110psi for my weight. I ran it at 75 and used the ramp control and compression setting to control any dive. The fork didn't really dive, but it was not as plush as what I am used to. I still think the tire might be overinflated and/or I am feeling feedback from the stiffer, less compliant carbon wheels.

The back end:
The PUSH elevensix shock is brilliant. Knolly has no mechanical climbing platform built into its design, so it depends on the shock to provide the proper platform for climbing. Even in its open setting, the shock did not bob excessively. It moved a little - but I want that. Knolly is known for its climbing in chunky conditions, and it requires suspension movement to make this happen. the ElevenSix seemed to control it well and allow the suspension's best traits to shine through.

HOWEVER - I swapped it out for a brand new Cane Creek Inline for tomorrow's ride, and when I did - OMG, that PUSH shock is HEAVY! At least a pound heavier than the CCDBi.

1x11 - I survived a 32t front with 10-42 in back. I climbed faster because I had no choice. My 2x10 setup has two lower gears available to me, and about 5 higher gears on the top end. Still - I get why 1x11 is popular, especially on bikes that weigh in the 26-27lb range. With the PUSH shock, this bike was around 30lbs. I made it up the hills, that's all I can say. Thank god it was cool out. I may have had to walk if it were warm.

The frame: Again, Knolly knows what they are doing with geometry and pivots. Solid. Stiff laterally. Did I mention solid?

Tomorrow - Whiting-Old Camp (maybe)-Luge-Whiting. This will not really test the capabilities of the bike, but it will give me a comparison to my bike on a familiar route.

Oh - I forgot to mention - Dave was on it today! He crushed R-I, then ripped Meadows a new one! Nice runs, dude! :clap: :thumbup:

 

The carbon wheels may very well be sending more feedback to your hands, and giving you that feeling. And the shock, a freaking pound! People spend a grand to reduce ounces..so it better perform and give sexual favors to put up with the weight penalty!

Or to quote Mr Bacon;
SQUIRREL

 

I don't really get subjective reviews unless I know what you're like before the change and what you're like after the change. Just reading it from a perspective of a person with Knolly bias riding the latest Knolly that's different in many ways, but designed to be ridden in a certain style, maybe evolved to be even more forward/aggressive. Sounds like the bike is making you feel like you're seriously out of shape, pushing you to go faster, and you've yet to really fall into that zone where you are riding it how it wants to be ridden.

 

Would you prefer numbers, charts and graphs? Like "I was .43% faster here," or "there was a drag coefficient of blah blah on the rear wheels?" I think it's pretty clear. Most of my report has been focused on the components, because they make the bigger difference initially. Riding is a subjective endeavor, and not an objective one unless you are racing. The bike is not making me feel seriously out of shape, nor is it pushing me to go faster (although I do have to go a bit faster uphill because it is geared a little higher). But gear ratios are not a function of the bike per se. I have to sort out the components before I can figure out how the actual frame differs, since it's so similar to my own bike.

Sorry that my subjective review is of no use to you. Next time I will put in a wall of graphs about the spring curves of the MRP fork compared to five other brands, and do the same for the rear shock. You may find more comfort in that science. Well actually, I won't be putting in such charts and graphs, because for most of us, they make no sense.

Keep being you! :wave: :clap: :thumbup:

 

That's what impression I got from you pointing out how things felt slower, how you were feeling more pronounced feedback from bumps and bouncing, having to slow down since you were getting knocked off line, how you were surviving the climbs, and how you felt relief that you are losing some weight by changing the shock. Main thing you seem positive about is about Knolly design and how you want to convince others of your opinion of the brand's lateral stiffness, geo, and suspension layout. The only comparisons I can relate to that you went into any detail on is that the lack of plushness, fork accuracy and a granny gear throwing you off and making others you ride with seem like they're doing better on familiar trails.

You said the shock was brilliant, saying that it didn't noticeably bob when climbing. How bad could it have been before, if you call it brilliant based on that one criteria? Or is there something else? Does it actually do better than being similar to your Avy-tuned CTD in other things than stutter bumps? If so, what exactly?

Now that you bring it up again, I would actually appreciate details on the wheel drag. Coasting drag only, or do you feel the extra drag while pedaling too? How bad do you think it is that you find it worth mentioning and bringing up a second time?

What 2x10 setup did you have that had 2 gears lower than 32-42, and 5 gears higher than 32-10?

Any basic metrics like average speed, times? Did Dave's GPS/strava actually show that he was contending his PRs, or was his performance in comparison to yours? Such details give a clearer story. How about this, try to tell the story as if another biker (not necessarily me) were following you and could see your facial expressions.

 

Hertz, Varaxis has a point. I know you dislike Strava, but Strava provides incredibly useful data, especially when comparing other bikes. All you can go by is feelings & that for the most part is not very accurate.

I've been a Strava user since May 2011 & the example I'll give you is with my Mojo HD. Great bike, did everything well & this is the time when 27.5 was starting to get a lot of traction. I was a 26" die hard fanboy & made fun of 29ers all the time. I bought some 27.5 wheels & mounted them up to my trusty Mojo HD. Went out for a ride on trails i did often & came back thinking I just wasted $500 on a set of rims. Downloaded my ride & found out I was 30 secs to minutes faster on anything with a climb or flat. Down hill I was within seconds or tied my normal times. Different areas I rode showed the same data when it came to climbing & flat riding the 27.5 wheels excelled. Even though to me, the wheels felt almost identical to the 26" wheels.

It's to a point now, when I demo bikes, if I don't get PRs or at least close to my average times that bike won't even be considered. My new Evil Following I'm getting PR's all over the place. Matter of fact before buying the Following here are the bikes I compared by 3 day demo riding of each bike: Intense 275C, Marin Vision Element, 275 Nomad, The Following & of course my trusting Niner Rip9RDO. According to Strava there was a clear winner & I bought that frame.

I think what Varaxis is alluding to that would be tough for you to judge is maybe you're going faster causing you to feel the suspension harshness or having problems holding your lines? Just a thought!




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Wow - demanding audience. I like that. First, I am not really writing a review, I am posting my experiences. Hopefully that will help clarify my intention of posting. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am sharing my perceptions and experiences for purposes of amusement. Nothing more.

I'll try the easier ones first. The wheel drag on the I9s is very very noticeable to me. I only noticed it while coasting, but I noticed it virtually every time I coasted. Dave has the same rear hub, and he said he doesn't notice it. I noticed it from the first moment I stepped aboard and started coasting down a paved street on my way to 5-Oaks. When I flip the bike over and spin the I9s compared to my DT Swiss, the DTs run a lot longer before stopping. I didn't measure the time, the rotations nor the force applied to making my wheel spin to ensure a scientific comparison.

The PUSH shock is very very cool, but it's heavy. My Avy'd CTD is very plush and does not bottom out, but there's a lot more movement in all settings. I like the stability of the PUSH better than the stability of my Avy'd CTD while pedaling, but downhill, they are fairly equivalent in soaking up bumps.

I hadn't got the front end dialed the way I like it yet due to a combination of carbon wheel, tire pressure and fork settings.

My Endorphin has 24/36t chainrings in front and 11-36 in the rear with 26" wheels. The Warden had a 32 in front and a 10-42 in the rear and 27.5" wheels. My legs and experience told me that the 32x42 was something akin to a 24 front x 30 rear on my 26er. I don't actually have that combo - I have 24 x 28, 32, and 36 as my lowest gears. In layman's term, the Warden's gearing was similar to me riding my bike up Mathis in 3rd gear. I could be wrong, but I bet I'm not. I am too lazy to do the math, because it is irrelevant to me. Oh, and I am also guessing that the 36t front chainring allows me about 5 more gears higher than 42 x 10. I could be way off there too, but I imagine there are at least two gears higher. Again, it doesn't matter to me because I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, nor am I trying to convince myself of anything. It's merely an observation.

As for the Knolly part of it - yup, I do appreciate the quality of their designs. I won't try convincing anyone else to buy one because it's not a fireroad bike. People in OC want a climbing platform and a carbon frame.

And finally, and most important: Dave had a good day on the descents - nothing to do with the bike I was riding. I've ridden with Dave enough to know when he's really on it. He was really on it. I have no data to prove that. Perhaps he does.

:wave:

 

Ride #3 - I swapped the PUSH for the brand new CC Inline. I had to guess on the setup - and I nailed it. 170psi and I needed to add more low speed rebound damping and a little high speed rebound damping from the base tune. Ride was Whiting-STT-Luge-Whiting with Danimal. Slimy weather, but the breeze at the top of the Luge was nice.

Holy crap, that Cane Creek Inline shock was good! It offered the plushness on stutter bumps that I expected from the PUSH ElevenSix. I know the PUSH could be tuned to be more supple, but I'll let others play with that beast. My Avy'd Fox CTD is good, but this CC-i was even better. I don't know if any of it has to do with the bigger wheels. But wow!

I never quite got the front end dialed. My hands and arms took more of beating on the Luge than I am used to, but I had a pretty good run nonetheless. I used about 75% of the 170mm of travel, and I prefer to use about 85-90% on the Luge. I could probably reduce air pressure in the MRP, but I was already 30% less than recommended air. I ran the tire at about 24psi, which was way better than ride #1 on Wednesday when it was at 30psi.

So that's a wrap. What did I learn? Components matter. To me, the fork matters most. I also learned I could probably live with a 1x11 system. I learned I do not need nor want carbon wheels. I also learned I will stick with DT Swiss hubs - you can have your noisy, instant engagement boutique brands. I also learned that 27.5 doesn't feel very different than 26 - and that's a good thing.

And the Warden frame? Just like my Endorphin, only black. And that's a good thing.

Thank you for reading and tolerating my subjective reporting based on nothing. :wave:

PS - Danimal is becoming a climbing beast. He will probably start challenging J and Faust pretty soon.

 

No charts or graphs? Useless information. On a serious note I generally run 30% less pressure in my suspension than recommended for my weight and still don't use all the travel. I guess I'm a graceful bull in that outdoor china shop.

 

Good deal! It's always fun time demoing bikes! I felt the same about 27.5 tires as you do. I couldn't tell a difference between 26 to 27, only way for me to tell was through Strava. Now with 29" wheels, I can definitely tell a difference.

Interesting that you find the CC inline so good, considering your avy rear shock & that coil over Push shock you rode. I'd love to try an Inline but The Following supposedly does not fit, so I'd have to get the shock either Pushed or have Avy do his magic. Thanks for the ride review!


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I did the math, because I'm interested in that kind of stuff and because it could help you out. According to bikecalc.com's gear inches calc, a 32x10 with 27.5 wheels is actually a bigger gear than 36x11 with 26" wheels. 32x42 on 27.5 wheels is also bigger than 24x32 and 24x36 on 26 wheels. That 10t is pretty significant. Played around with their other calcs and found that 32x42@60 RPM (27.5x2.35) will make you go 3.76 MPH (5 MPH@80 RPM).

Here's a chart/graph, to make this info all more credible:

 

The CC DB Inline is too linear for the E29, which is already linear enough. Knollys are all really progressive, some Knolly models more than others in their line-up, so it likely doesn't suffer from lack of big hit performance. Likely has a slightly stiffer early stroke, more compliant mid-stroke, and comparable end stroke, compared to a coilover on the Knolly. I'm picking up some silicone bands to fit as volume spacers on mine, since it's every spacer CC provided is already in mine (1 L, 3 Sm). They're really small, I'd estimate the big one is about 5 cc (5 small ones = big one, so 1 cc each). Figure I'd keep adding more and more until I get the progressivity I need. I just don't like comfort based tunes and a traction based tune gives my bike a stronger "over-biked" feel.

 

Now that's funny!


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Yes, that is funny.

Had a good run with Hrz, and he did nail the luge with the CCDB. Mentioned how he really liked it, so yes suspension components seem to matter.
I had Hrz adjust my suspension ( he is a guru at it) after I commented that the Luge run was crap and my suspension front and rear were bouncing me around. He worked his magic, and Bang! all was great. Good run through Whiting, fast and fun.

Mtbbiker, I'd really like a review on the Following. After riding the 29er BMC I've been thinking hard about getting one. This is at the top of my list. Also want to try the new Pivot 429 Trail. Although my Mach 5 fit me well, they've change their frame dimensions since then, so the 5.7 just didn't fit me well, so interested in trying the new 429.

And on chris's note of climbing, STRAVA has given me hard data that my times are getting better and hitting new PRs. Mostly on the climbs.
However, not sure if it is more on the chick or the duck side of the graph. Need to sign up for the STRAVA premium service to get that data.

 

Thanks for the reviews Herz. I'm just glad there are different likes and dislikes and opinions on most everything in our little bike world, makes for allot of options to suit one's preferences.

I have no experience to compare Knolly/MRP/Guide/11-6/dbai or even 27.5. My head is in a hole, and I feel fine. Just can't justify the cost of incremental improvements over what I have.... and having fun with what I got. I just need to ride more

One thing I will share, as it reflects to the differences in perception between people/riders. I told Herz yesterday that he was too sensitive when he said the I-9 hub rolled slow. How the hell can you tell that, spin it and it goes on and on. But I've never ridden his DT hubs to compare to, so I can't. After the ride I asked him how he liked the quick engagement on the I-9s and he said he didn't notice. That's so funny because when I got the I-9s the fast engagement made a HUGE difference to me, and I never noticed slow rolling.

To each their own :thumbup:

 

Your math can't be right, can it? Bigger wheels require more effort to turn with the same gear ratio, right? I spin like a crazy person going nowhere in 24x36 on my 26er, and the 32 x42 was definitely more stout and harder to turn over. I gained more ground per pedal stroke on the Warden in granny than I do on the Endorphin in granny. There is no doubt. Both bikes weighed the same. You are welcome to try for yourself. Let's do some Mathis climbs!

 

32-42 on 27.5 tires slots right in between the second cog (24-32) and third (24-28) on a 26" in difficulty.. gear inches (how many inches forward with one turn of the pedal) = (front ring/rear cog) * (tire diameter)

And Varaxis is correct in regard to the high end, as I noticed I was about spinning out following you down the top of rockit, you were about the same cadence. Your old 36-11 on 26" is 85 inches per stroke, 32-10 on 27.5 is 88 inches per stroke, so a little taller. My 38-11 on 26" is close to 90 inches, not much different.

Sorry for geekery, I have a spreadsheet, and I like to ponder numbers. :ugeek:

edit/add: Oops, as Grego pointed out, gear inches do not equal how far you move with one pedal stroke. Must multiply gear inches * pi to get that

 

THANK YOU! Exactly what I said above. I believe I said it would be roughly the equivalent of a 24x30 on a 26er - if I had such a gear. Yay me and my non-scientific sense of feel - and yay you for saving me mathematically!

 

yeah, but a little off of the "5 more gears higher" since the 1x is a little taller than your 36-11 on the high end, maybe those hubs roll better than you think

note: Herz and I are just friendly jousting, just don't poke me in the eye dammit

 

Thank God I'm dumb and don't understand one word coming outta your pieholes.... I'll just ride my crappy little bike.

 

Actually it's (front ring/rear cog) * (tire circumference) for inches forward per 1 crank revolution. but you can use diameter for a reference for comparisons too. I think that's what they did on the spreadsheet.

Herz, as far as feeling like your spinning out? you were probably just going faster than normal. Those bigger wheels tend to do that. They also climb better (off road) which means you don't necessarily need those granny gears. That's why todays 1x gearing works.