Discussion with Southern California Bicyclist.... Subject: E-Bikes

Another article, kinda sorta to @kiotis point... http://www.bikeradar.com/us/mtb/gear/article/the-real-problem-with-electric-mountain-bikes-47256/ (sorry if this has already been posted)
From Bikeradar 6/14/2016:
The real problem with electric mountain bikes

In the US, the cycling industry must figure out how to keep e-MTBs from ruining it for the rest of us


The companies pushing e-MTBs need to step up to educate retailers and riders as to where they are allowed and where they are banned — the future of trail access in the United States hangs in the balance
(Josh Patterson / Immediate Media)
There’s been a lot of vitriol thrown at electric-assist mountain bikes. The arguments against allowing e-MTBs on singletrack run the gamut from the somewhat elitist and intangible view that they’re not 'real' or 'pure' mountain bikes to the much more valid (and worrying) claim that, if not managed responsibly, e-MTBs could cost all mountain bikers access to the trails we love to ride.

For readers outside of the United States, this issue may not apply to you. The US is blessed with thousands of square miles of public land — many times larger than some countries — that are administered by a complicated web of federal, state and local land management agencies. Rules on land use can vary dramatically and can take years, even decades, to change.

In general, e-MTBs are classified as motorized. This makes sense as they do, in fact, have an electric motor. Early research shows that their impact is comparable to traditional mountain bikes, but whether e-MTBs should only be allowed on trails that are also open to other motorized users, or if they should also be permitted to pedal alongside their non-motorized brethren isn’t the point, at least not for now.

The best defense against trail closures is educating e-MTB riders on where they are currently allowed to ride and in this, the cycling industry is falling woefully short.
For now, the primary concern should be making sure that anti-mountain bike zealots can’t turn e-MTBs into a reason to run the rest of us off the trails. Pedal-assist mountain bikes might empower some riders to go farther and faster, but this is not technology worth losing hard-fought ground for. The best defense against trail closures is educating e-MTB riders on where they are currently allowed to ride and in this, the cycling industry is falling woefully short.

A reponsibility to educate
Are e-MTBs allowed on my trails? In some cases that’s a murky question, but one that must be answered. In my opinion, the responsibility for educating riders on responsible electric-assist mountain bike use falls squarely on the shoulders of the bike companies pushing their acceptance, not on overworked and underfunded advocacy organizations.

To the bike companies peddling e-MTBs: it’s time to take a slice of the pie from the marketing budget and put it toward educating your customers.

Imagine if you just plunked down thousands of dollars for a motor-assisted mountain bike only to get yelled at by fellow mountain bikers, ticketed the minute you rode onto singletrack, or worse, became 'that guy' who got an entire trail network closed to fellow cyclists. Not good, right? And ignorance is no excuse.

Specialized, for one, is acutely aware of what’s at stake.

"We need to make sure we’re out ahead of any conflicts," says the brand’s global public relations manager, Sean Estes.

Dealer education is the company’s primary approach to preventing e-MTB use in prohibited areas.

"Our biggest concern is getting the information to retailers, since they’re the touch point for most riders. We’ve been really clear with retailers to not jeopardize trail access," Estes adds.

Specialized has developed what it calls the 'Turbo Levo Retailer Toolkit', which encourages bike shops to inventory existing trails in their area that are open to e-MTBs and begin a conversation with local land managers about responsible e-MTB use.

Harnessing apps
This is a commendable first step. But the reality is that efforts by one manufacturer, even a large one, are not enough. All the companies promoting e-MTB acceptance need come together to spearhead the development, or at the very least, pony up the cash, to create a platform that lets all e-MTB riders know where they can and can’t ride. Technology is creating this conflict, but it can also be used to solve it.

In short, there needs to be an app for that.

The most practical option would be to use existing platforms, such as MTB Project, which allows riders to browse trail networks all over the world. It would take some work, but it would be possible to have a filter that shows only those trails that allow e-MTB use.

Trailforks, another popular trail app, already has plans to add this functionality. "While many of us are not thrilled about the rise of e-bikes, it’s a good idea to start indexing where they are allowed to reduce user conflict," says Trailforks administrator Trevor May.

Creating an inventory of which trails allow e-MTBs is a massive undertaking and one that’s important enough that these major trail databases shouldn’t have to have to work independently of one another to compile a list of legal e-MTB trails. I challenge bike companies to work together to fund the development of an e-MTB trail database. Given what’s at stake for all mountain bikers, this should have been in the works long before the first pedal-assist mountain bike rolled off the showroom floor.

In the meantime, if you are thinking of purchasing an e-MTB, please do your homeworkbefore you buy — know which trails you are permitted to ride, which are off-limits, and steer clear of areas where the regulations are unclear. Talk with your local mountain bike club, advocacy organizations and local land managers to ensure continued access for all mountain bikers.

Enjoy riding your pedal-assisted mountain bike, but please don’t ruin this for the rest of us.

 

what seems like a small speed increase is actually a big deal from a crowding perspective. being able to spend 50% of your time going down, rather than 15%, you triple the trail use and thus triple your encounters with other users.

At the extreme, think about how much open space motos need. Johnson valley ohv area is 40x bigger than El Moro.

Adding a few dozen ebikes to a local park would guarantee that you were at any one time always having to deal with trail traffic in your path. Now I know that adding a few dozen old ladies walking six across isn't great either, but they only end up using a small slice of the park per unit of time.

 

Never thought of the time and space side of the argument before. Interesting, and mathematically correct, perspective.

 

Again many think that climbing on a e-bike is much faster. Faster yes, much faster no. Easier yes, much easier yes. Just allows for longer climbs without getting tired. But not that far because of the limitations of the battery. Please ride one then make educated comments.

I don't advocate for e-bikes in local parks, just a bad idea. I want the power to be in local land managers hands to make the call. For the past month having dozens of real world encounters on the trail with my e-bike, riding mostly remote San Gabriel's no problems...nobody recognizes it is pedal assist. The people that do stop, all most all other MTBers, I point out what it is. They are more interested than opposed. But there again my gift of persuasion is rather strong. Some take me up on my offer to ride my bike others do not express any thing negative, they just say that at my age is good that you are out here enjoying yourself. So far not one person of my dozen of encounters has caused any negative feed back. But I am very careful to stay away from popular routes.

Dean

 

This is not about you Dean. We know you have paid your dues and you understand what's at stake and that you will not do anything to jeopardize the tissue-thin relationship we have with other trail users. It's about the uninitiated, uncaring, uninformed users who don't know and may not want to know or care what's at stake. Unfortunately, I am guessing your attitude, understanding and courtesy will be rare among e-mtb-ers in the very near future.

 

I'm not so sure yet. The way I'm reading dean is that he's trying to claim that poaching SOT and riding wilderness on an ebike is some kind of righteous act of civil disobedience. Sounds more like narcissism. Am I reading that wrong?

dean, you're very perceptive that I've never ridden an ebike, but labeling my comment as uneducated is off base.

My comment does not require riding experience, it requires math, which is harder and more relevant. There are whole engineering and business disciplines dedicated to this sort of queueing or traffic problem, so someone with the right background can do the math and give you a precise answer, but I presented an educated guess. i will leave the precise answer as an exercise for the sophomore industrial engineer who reads this someday.

 

The technology to build or purchase an ebike has been available for at least 20 years, but I haven't seen anyone tearing up the trails scaring people. The only ebikers that I've encountered so far were responsible individuals that were/are MTB riders. For some, the ebike helped them keep up with their friends; for others, it was a different experience. Why do we assume that Class 1 eMTB riders are going to act irresponsibly? I advocate riding where it's legal, but hope that more areas are opened in the future.

 

Twenty years? two word response: Nickel Cadmium

 

From the article above, "The real problem with electric bikes:"

A reponsibility to educate
Specialized, for one, is acutely aware of what’s at stake. "We need to make sure we’re out ahead of any conflicts," says the brand’s global public relations manager, Sean Estes.
Dealer education is the company’s primary approach to preventing e-MTB use in prohibited areas. "Our biggest concern is getting the information to retailers, since they’re the touch point for most riders. We’ve been really clear with retailers to not jeopardize trail access," Estes adds.

Sounds great, right? So I watched a Specialized Levo bike review done with Garrett at Rock n' Road in Laguna Niguel. Asked about how it rides, he says he rode it at Aliso and it was great. Rode twice as far in the same amount of time. I kept waiting for the disclaimer, but it never came. Maybe a chat with the Ranger is in order.

 

Geniuses.

" I like the fact that it's stealthy."

This video will be taken down before Monday

Edit: I didn't notice that the video was not produced by the bike shop. So this should be fun...

 

Maybe we should boycott Rock n' Road? (Posed as a question, not a declarative statement).

Well, I guess Specialized could give two ****s about proper dealer education... This classic on so, so many levels. Not just because my initial emotional absurd over-reaction was completely bloody justified!

 

Four words: your response is B S.

 

You don't need a e-bike to poach. It fact it is harder because of the limitations of batteries. If any group of riders risk loose of trail access it is the backcountry riders marketed us by video companies sliding turns, building jumps/berms, and going way to fast.

Poaching is an act of civil disobedience. I am a MTBing product of Flagstaff and Sedona where the MTBing culture 10 years was very different. Today we enjoy many trails that would have never have existed without a degree of civil disobedience. Hangover, Highline, Private Reserve, Prom Night Wasabi, Maces Revenge and a dozen others have been there for years illegal before they were adopted by the forest service. So I am guessing tick never goes off trail in Laguna.

Dean

 

Think they are Lithium ion. Therefore known fire hazards as seen with Li-ion batteries in Boeing 787, Tesla, hoverboards.

 

Why? Was Nickel Metal Hydride a better response? How about lead acid? do you remember the state of battery tech in 1996?

Ebikes emerged as soon as the tech progressed enough to make them viable. 4 years from now that $6k bike will be $3k, and the new $6k bike will have double the range. But it won't matter because there won't be a legal place to ride a bicycle within 2 hours of here.

 

Yes, definitely a tech progression. Li-ion batteries are a big weight saver over Ni cad and lead acid batteries. That's why Boeing and Airbus use them on their new carbon frame 787 and a350 airplanes, and why tesla cars use them. specialized knew they could put them on a mtb like frame, and it wouldn't be as heavy a pig as earlier tech motorized bikes and mopeds.

 

Ethics evolve as usage patterns evolve. Your experience in Arizona says as much. This next evolution may drive the local rider to extinction if we don't get it right.

 

Just the other day I actually met a mountain biker on the trail who "lurks" imtbtrails almost daily.
He was telling me what a great site it was, but he also mentioned the big E-Bike debate, and what was "that" all about.

To be honest, I was a little embarrassed. For the most part, we have all been very civil about it, and I commend you!

Two things:
1) It has become very apparent that either side is not going to convince either side of their views. This is about as opposite in polarity and wiring as, Men and Women, Liberal and Conservative, Black and White.
2) This is the one subject that has broke imtbtrails rules of engagement several times since the site has been up and running, and that is attacking others emotionally.

Most Forum Operators love forum conflict like this as it causes massive participation, membership increase, and increased postings, and viewings. To be honest, I don't have time to go to other Forums and get a pulse on E-Bike debates or to see if there even are any. The one thing I want to make sure of is that we stay respectful regardless of what is said or suggested.

I know that's tough when emotions are flying (Look at this years Democratic and Republican Presidential debates. Even they can't control themselves! Both sides have made a spectacle of themselves.)

I don't mind the E-Bike debate going on for years to come. I suspect that it may. I "will" say that if it gets to the point where imtbtrails is embarrassed that newbies, lurkers, and new members won't join or participate. If the public view of imtbtrails is tainted by heated E-Bike discussions and believes for a moment that this is not a positive place to join and talk about bicycles. I will lock all E-Bike debate posts and ban any new ones like it's spam or a communicable disease!

You might think, what the hell? I'm being censored! Yup! You can think that if you want. Here we use "Objective" not "Subjective" Morality (look it up), and within that objective morality will be discussions with kindness. We are all different, embrace it! Have fun!

Mikie
imtbtrails

 

The ironic part is Mikie is that you started the camp fire, not knowing at the time , how windy it was going to get. And I must say you are the man, and have been and are doing a hell of a job!

 

Maybe two points of agreement:
1) If we perceive eMTB's as a threat (I don't, but am an MTB advocate first), we should resist them mightily.
2) We shouldn't give anti-MTB groups ammunition (possibly, I have, but will be much more careful).

 

I think you need to get a better e-bike.

 

I started and still welcome the debate. Debate away! But please, never think less of another because they have a different viewpoint. Swearing at someone, or telling them they are a hater, or they are full of Sh!t, or a trail nazi etc etc etc, is NOT going to win anyone over. Emotional outbursts are nothing more than, "I have nothing of value left to say, so I'm just going to insult you."
That is the only thing I would take issue with, as should anyone that truly wants to get ideas across to another.

So as a starter kit (only a suggestion) I would do everything possible to stick to the real issue.
1) Is an E-Bike a motorized Vehicle?
2) Should they be classified the same as an H-Bike?
3) Should they be allowed on non motorized trails?
4) Do they, or do they not help the Trail advocacy cause for the traditional cyclist?
5) How will the E-Bike be perceived by other trail user and special interest groups?
6) Will they or will they not be used against the traditional cyclist when in comes to closures of trails.

Really, just in my opinion, there is really nothing else to talk about.
Trail erosion, how fast they go up or down the trail, lithium batteries, carbon footprint, etc etc etc, are all "intersecting", but really just sub categories people try to use to further a viewpoint. If we stick to the core swim lanes and stay self evaluating on the true issues and concerns, then core can truly be discussed.

 

I don't know if it has been clarified but are we grouping e-bikes with pedal assist? It may sound hypocritical but I would never want to ride an e-bike on our MTB trails but would definitely consider a pedal assist. Mostly for long grueling climbs that have the biggest reward when you point it down hill.

 

E-Bike/Peddle Assist are both motorized, therefore for me is one in the same. The answer is yes, there are manufacturers and advocates that claim that some E-Bikes are classified the same as Human Powered Mountain Bikes (H-Bikes). I disagree with this thought.
My concern is that other user groups will use that against us to further alienate us from trail access. I firmly believe we should stop trying to blend the two together and come up with clear designations for each. That way, traditional cyclist can continue to advocate for trail access and retain and potentially regain lost trail access.

 

/thread?

 

Can't go to Moab right now, but I did take a virtual trip to France (courtesy of Specialized)..

.

Also, good news!-- according to this video, Ebikes are legal on California trails.. so no passport needed! (Relevant comments at @ 5min/3osec.)
.

And finally, if you're not one to let minor technicalities get in your way, here's a cheap kit to help you leave the pros in your dust! https://www.electricbike.com/cheap-electric-bike/

 

Actually the kit can be had for about $200 making the cost closer to $800. That 20 pound motor and 15 pound battery will have a "slight" influence on weight distribution. If you pass anybody off road, it'll be a long fire road ascent.

 

Thanks for sharing your expertise, Bob.

 

Thanks, Jim; built one with a front mounted 7 pound battery for better weight distribution. Not quite as nimble as a Sherman Tank and haven't passed anybody yet.

 

I so rarely quote the Bible... but here's something to consider:

"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us" ROMANS 5:3-5

Is mountain biking without the effort mountain biking? Is climbing Mt. Everest without the effort, mountain climbing? If you could fly to the top of Mt. Everest via helicopter, jump out and take a selfie, would you gain as much as someone who climbed from Base Camp? If you can e-bike to the top of Santiago Peak in 45 minutes - would you understand it as much as someone who slaved for 4 hours to do it their first time, solo, and stood at the top of Orange County and crowed at the world?