Boutique vs Major brands... thoughts?

So I went into one of my local shops yesterday to pick up some sealant, and do a little window shopping to drool over the current floor models. Got into a discussion with one of the shop guys, and basically his feeling was that for the same pricepoint, bigger brands like spec, cannondale... would have better components and better overall bang for buck than smaller brands like santa cruz. Thoughts on this? What are your experiences? What do you feel the boutique/smaller brands bring as an advantage?

 

I buy frames and go from there nowadays but it is true you will get "more bang for your buck" simply because of the volume the big guys deal with. If I buy one unit of something I will pay more for it than if I buy 100 of them, the big guys are buying a lot of XYZ so they get a discount that drops the overall price of a complete bike.

I don't think it's necessarily an advantage thing more than people like to spend their dollar as they please so if they don't want a rental fleet type bike they are willing to shell out more for custom designs, to be different, etc etc.

 

There is a catch 22 on this one. Bigger brands get away with trickery by being able to source custom spec parts. The big S (specialized) does this all the time. The Guide brakes on their s-works seems like the same ones you get from Rockshox, except they don't have the same levers or they are missing the throw adjusters. Also, the big S can demand its own shock tune and "brain" that I think is some BS'ery. Boutique shops seems to source the same stuff we can buy at retail, which I am in favor of.

Try sourcing that 04 enduro with the custom shock tune and shock length. I DARE YOU!

 

I normally buy framesets and switch all the components from one frame to the other. If you notice that even big companies like Giant, Trek and Cannondale frameset are the same price as the boutique equivalent. The big guys are cranking frames out by the thousands, but why are they the same price if not more sometimes than a boutique frame. I remember when the Trance frame came out and it was $800 retail!! Now a Trance Advanced is 2K+ just for the frame. Me personally I would rather have the boutique frame, just because I like to support smaller builders than the big guys.

 

Of course economies of scale work.

But you don't go boutique for components, you go boutique to have something different. I don't think Santa Cruz is boutique. I see more of them then Cannondale. I almost never see Jamis, but that isn't boutique either.

I race a Cannondale, just picked up a Specialized. I don't care for all the hate people have for brands, just seems like a waste of energy. People complain about the proprietary nature of Cannondale, but I love how everything just works so smooth and effective. People complain about whatever with Specialized, while I am busy hucking it off drops.

Edit: I care more about the fact that you are riding, I don't give a damn what you are riding. Ride what makes you happy.

 

Good points, I never really thought about that. I can say that almost all bikes are made in the same four or five giant factories in Taiwan, no matter what the downtube says.

 

We, who are in the bike circle, know of Santa Cruz and its really not as boutique as it used to be. But if you go outside that circle most people have never heard of Santa Cruz Bicycles.

If you took a survey of people off the street, what brands other than Schwinn have people heard of?

Again we in the bike circle have heard of the Jamis's, Fuji's and Marins and other smaller major brands that was mentioned was made in one of a few bike factories in Asia. I knew years ago all Santa Cruz frames other than the VPP frames were made by Giant.

 

Yes, this! I never liked all the CODA stuff on C'Dale, or the Giant or Specy branded parts on their bikes that they still do. Basically because I never knew what quality the part was. It just ends up being generic, no matter how nice it might potentially be.

 

The more you support large brands, the fewer choices you'll have moving forward.

 

First, let's not kid ourselves. Buying a middle to high-end bike today is like buying a Dell computer. Most companies don't make any of their components - they source them from Shimano, SRAM, FOX, etc. The only way they can meaningfully differentiate themselves is through their frame - which in the majority of cases is made in Taiwan, with some frame manufacturers making frames for several bike manufacturers. There are certainly exceptions, but this is the rule.

Given an XTR/XX1 with a high-end Fox fork build from one bike manufacturer to the same from another... the difference is going to be pretty subtle and may come down to frame geometry and the extent to which you are willing to tweak the build to get it "just right" by messing with your seat, your steam, your bar, etc, which is independent of the bike manufacturer.

So I am pretty much of a pragmatist when it comes to buying bikes. I might pay a 10% premium to go from a mass market build to a specialty build because it makes me happier or I like the paint job better. But some of the premiums that are charged are, in my opinion, ridiculous. I'm not willing to pay twice as much for one bike versus another just for a brand name, if all the components are the same and I don't see anything earth-shatteringly different about the frames.

 

Bold New Graphics!

 

IMO at this point, I don't think there's much 'boutique' anymore. Most comparable bikes/frames are in the same generic price range it seems. Any trickle down theory from bulk purchasing sure as hell doesn't apply to high end mountain bikes. It's probably more applicable to something like the under $1000-1500 mark, where the 'boutique' companies don't even care to be in the market. I honestly can't believe what some people pay for a complete. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just can't do it. I've got probably $4500 into my DH bike and that's with getting deals on everything and buying the frame/shock for $800. It would have probably been $7k+ to roll out with the same spec from a shop, on the low end. The only way I buy completes is either used or highly discounted to offset the cost of replacing what I want. I scored my Spitfire for $2200 OTD at Jenson, then replaced the brakes with XTs, added used Enves, changed out the cockpit and added a Thomson dropper, all either used or discounted. I've been riding long enough, I'm pretty particular about my setups.

At least now, more manufacturers are stocking specs that I've been running for years with wider bars and shorter stems with longer top tubes.

 

I think I'd just rather build my own bikes from the frame up regardless of who makes the frame. The thing about the larger companies is that they only offer up the high end models as a frame only. It is cheaper initially to buy a complete...but in the end...I always swap out the components anyways.

We got my GF a Stumpjumper 6F last year for 3k OTD. Only thing that's left from the stock bike is the rear derailleur, cassette, shifter, and fork.

I picked up a Spitfire frame last year...and built it up exactly the way I want it...without having to toss a bunch of parts.

Nowadays bike prices are getting more competitive. Even the uber boutique bikes have introduced "lower" cost models to keep up. Its either they lower their price...or make e bikes.

 

I used to buy my dream frame and spec every detail down to the spoke and nipple. 2 Ventanas, and 1 yeti since 2008. Two years a ago, I sold the yeti to a friend and noticed a creak on the remaining El Rey the following day. While chasing down the annoying creak, I discovered a sizeable crack on the seat tube. I was leaving on a trip to Idaho the following week with no bike in the stable. I went to my LBS planning on adding Santa Cruz to the list. I went off my usual and bought a complete Kona Process 111. This has been the funnest bike I have ever ridden. 2 years later, I have only added a carbon fiber bar and wheels. My point, by piecing together bikes, I think I ruined all the R & D that goes into designing a modern mtb.

 

Definitely agree. The only reason I bought my Spitty complete is the whole thing was cheaper than what other places were selling frames for. The other nice benefit is having a complete rig to take out and replace things here or there rather than having to drop all the coin at one time.

 

I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn express last night, but.....

Make sure that you are not confusing cost and sale price.
The big guys reduce their cost by buying components in bulk, but they are not in business to save you money!
Prices are set by the market. The price is whatever we (the consumers) are willing to pay for it.

 

For those with Specialized frames and wanting a non Specialized shock mount. Bikeyoke has replacement yokes for enduros, stumpjumpers, and cambers. I have one and just haven't decided which shock to use. Takes a standard 190x51 shock.

 

Not learning my lesson, I bought an 09 specialized enduro in titanium. It was the nicest bike I ever owned. It was also the most locked down bike I owned. This model came with the in house specialized e150 dual crown fork. The stem was integrated so in order for you to get more reach. You would need to buy a new upper crown with the desired stem length. Secondly, the e150 was notorious for crapping out which required a factory approved diy mod. Since the fork was made by specialized, no one had any parts for it and Specialized did not stock enough parts for all the forks they sell. Third, the 25mm hub locked you into only being able to rehoop the rim since no one else saw the value in making wheelsets with 25mm hubs. Lastly, try buying parts for discontinued specialized bikes. It's hard. Very hard. I tried buying a new 25mm hub just 3 years after; and guess what. Discontinued and not in stock. They had to reach out to the affiliates to see if any had any left over. I also tried buying a clamp for a 4 year old dropper post. Same story.

Sorry about the specialized rant. I get worked up about companies with proprietary crap that don't support their own stuff.

 

That's one thing I've never done. I flat out refuse to buy anything (or highly suspected to be) proprietary. It just usually never ends well...even outside of bikes.

 

So they're right up there with Apple. Another brand I won't touch for that same reason.

 

Apple is excellent (in my opinion). Ibis is still a boutique brand. And the best thing about Ibis is the amazing service and support for really good bikes. Truthfully, there are a LOT of really good bikes out there even at the $3k price point or less. Go with the one you like AND the one you know will treat you well on service and support. Hard to beat Ibis.

 

Apple machines have been Intel based for over a decade, and run on a Unix. If you're using a mouse, and clicking on pictures, it's proprietary. Real men use the command line. It's the DH of the computing world.

And the Apple command line makes anything on windows look like a prison.

I was a unix geek in another life...

 

Ahhhh......so you're related to the Uni Geezer???

 

Be cool, man, muni is in da house.

 

Gotta agree with @AKAKTM that Ibis customer service is second to none. I've called on em twice and once I was greeted on the phone by none other than "ask Chuck" and next time was emailed back within a half hour by Scot Nicol himself. It wasn't just lip service either and they were actually there to help. In my book you cant beat that.

Another thing I've noticed having attended many different demo events is that the boutique brands always seem to have some quality post ride adult refreshments stashed in a cold ice chest for post ride recovery. That's customer service in my book and why I like riding something different than the big box brands...

 

Another company with outstanding customer service is Ventana. Teresa and Sherwood take care of their customers like know other. Foes also has great customer service. I have noticed that the smaller the company the better the service. One exception was Chumba. Not even going to start with them.

 

I like bike brands with soul. I like brands that don't make anything but mt. bikes. I like a bike brand where I can e-mail or talk to the owner directly, and swap stories about riding. I have the cell phone numbers of a few bike brand's presidents, CEOs, CFOs or R and D guys. I flash them a text when their riders have a great day. They respond. They know my kid, I know theirs.

I hate proprietary, volume deal trickery like OEM forks and brakes or hubs that are substandard, as mentioned above.

I've never paid more than $3999 for a complete mt. bike from a "boutique" brand, nor more than $1400 for a frameset w/shock, (plus fr. derailleur, seat post and clamp).

Develop relationships and you can sidestep all the BS and get what you want for waaaaaaaay less than retail.

Best wishes, y'all!

 

That's because Windows IS a prison. By design. And it's only getting worse. Heck today I tried to do an Internet search using Bing and I was prompted to log into my (non-existing) Windows account to create a "unified experience and earn points for free Microsoft Products or free XBox Ones!" Heaven forbid!

 

Great feedback, a lot to chew on with this topic. I guess the big guys keep a lot of their cost a bit lower because they equip with their branded components. Maybe the middle ground is brands that are pretty slightly big like norco.

Edit: My big catch 22 is how easy and convenient it is to find and demo a big brand like trek or spec before buying. Being 6'5" it's hard enough to find a proper size to try, but to find a specific bike i want from a smaller company, in a size that actually fits... I'm really into the Transition smuggler, but the only way I could test ride one right now might be to drive to Bellingham and do it there for instance.

 

You gotta learn to look at the geo numbers. While they may not make or break the perfect bike for you, at least they will get you into the ballpark. Like others have said, I haven't demo'ed a bike in 10 years, but have had 10-12 new bikes.

I don't buy complete bikes either....I prefer to build them up myself. Pick and choose what I want from the beginning.

We are a Santa Cruz family here. We have been riding them since they were a boutique brand when Kinesis was building their frames up in Oregon. Sadly, they are no longer a small boutique company. What sets them apart to me though, comparing them to the Big 3....is that SC only makes mtn bikes(yes, they do make 1 CX bike)...but no road bikes, no hybrids, no kids bikes, no beach cruisers.