Sierra Club stance on MTB

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CarlS, Jun 16, 2015.


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  1. CarlS

    CarlS Member

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Name:
    Carl
    Current Bike:
    Walmart $50 special
    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/06/the-daily-bike-the-sierra-club-weighs-in-on-bikes-and-wilderness/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/0 ... ilderness/</a>

    some interesting reading. especially the comments that are well written. I will summarize:

    it's ours. we don't want to give you any of it. We will sidestep any questions about equestrian usage causing more damage to it. but we can pretend to be friends so you can be deceived into thinking we are allowing you some access when in reality we are gaining more of it (wilderness)

    :roll:
     
  2. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    My cognitive dissonance kicks in when I think about motos. Although MX and moto Enduro look like fun, I definitely do not want motos on my trails. They are loud, fast, heavy and dangerous and have no place in a pristine environment like a forest trail. They pose a threat to my solitude and safety. They make our trails unrideable. They bring an unsavory element of impolite, aggressive people who also like loud music, big trucks, pit bulls, tattoos and parking lot parties with cans of non-IPA beer. That's the way most hikers, joggers and horsey people feel about MtBers - except the IPA part. They see us as loud, rude, dangerous people who force them off the trails and ruin the pristine experience for them as well as widening the trails. That is why it is so imperative that we are uber-polite at all times on multi-use trails, and the more we dress like storm troopers (i.e. pads, full face helmets, goggles), the more out-of-the-way polite we need to be. In fact, we should probably not be riding multi-use, multi-directional trails while wearing said garb. Also, the more we ride in large groups on multi-use trails on busy days and force hikers off the trail for a long line of bikers, the more they will mobilize against us.

    Be polite. Announce your presence so as not to startle anyone. Let them stay on trail if possible. Avoid riding in large groups in typically crowded locations and times. Do not cut the trail - and do not widen it by riding the fringes if you can help it. Keep your music to yourselves. We are locked together in displaying our image, as long as we are riding a bike on a multi-use trail. Join IMBA.

    End of sermon.

    :wave:
     
  3. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Not stating this as adversarial or as an aggressive retort to their thinking, but, "Who put them in charge?"
    They are tax payers... we are tax payers.
    They are (hopefully) United States citizens the same as us (hopefully).
    We both have the privilege to vote.
    I believe we are contributors to society for the most part, assuming they are as well.

    So it really comes down to perception . . . and money.
    We have organized advocacy groups, but I think the one thing we truly lack is participation and contribution. This statement is not pointed or directed to anyone who obviously does contribute or participate. I know that I could contribute more and participate more.

    Herzalot does nail it though. We have a bad reputation (in general) of scaring the crap out of people on the trail. And, there are those of us (I have not experienced any on imtbtrails as of yet), that react as oppose to "respond" when writing letters for our position. Dropping the "F" Bomb in a retort letter and calling folks in general "Jack Wads" for not liking Mountain Bikers and their Bikes is not a great argument in our favor. I think this tends to come from folks of lesser education and moral scruples.

    So what CAN we do to assist in turning a positive corner.
    I believe and may even be bold enough to suggest that if you are a part of imtbtrails, you should feel obligated to participate in the following suggestions. imtbtrails is free, your trails however are not!
    1) I always have envied STR's participation in jumping on board the "Save the Whale" rallies of writing letters or signing petitions that reinforce our public position on Mountain Biking to the Forest Service or Congressmen involved. We need to do more of that.
    2) Attendance to meetings that matter. I too am convicted of not attending more. I will drive 3 to 4 hours to go ride a new trail, but will not be able to find the time to attend a trail advocacy meeting where there are others there observing our participation...
    3) Sign up for IMBA, CORBA, TAMBA, and anything else you can find that advocates on our part. It is important to show our numbers and to positively support.
    4) Contribute. We scrape money together to build awesome bikes but it will do little good if it can only sit in your garage. Set aside some money to support our cause.

    What is so important to understand is, they are organized and the fund freely their cause. We need to do the same or we WILL lose our trails...

    There. End of MY sermon. :D

    Mikie
    imtbtrails
     
  4. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    I have never had a problem with motos. In fact in the remote places I like to ride I feel safer with them around. When the motos got kicked off the trail in the southern Nevada's the trails became impassable due to downed trees and brush. The moto guys where they only ones doing maintenance. Now that motos are gone so are the trails. Remember access is lost slowly, first one group then they work on the next group. After motos banned they may ban bikes next. Cannel Plunge, Kern Canyon Trails, are prefect example's how nice moto can be. I think anyone that spends a lot of time riding Kernville area will have a positive experience on motos. Yes they do cause trail damage but so do bikes. I would rather deal with loose rutted trails than have the trail lost to deadfall and brush and become unusable. I find the backwoods moto guys very different that the kids riding the Santa Ana's.

    Dean
     
  5. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Dean,
    Right you are on the point of view you are making. I think what herzalot is reflecting is the "perception" that hikers and in particular the Sierra Club has of us in comparison to Moto's. McGill trail is an excellent location to get the "wrong" perception of Mountain Biking on a Saturday. Hikers would be crazy to attempt a hike with their kids and dogs on that trail during "Shuttle Season"... That is not a good example of what we as Cross Country and All Mountain do... but is a prolific and horrible example that hikers walk away with in regards to our daily trail presence on the trail networks of America.
     
  6. CarlS

    CarlS Member

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Name:
    Carl
    Current Bike:
    Walmart $50 special
    One comment that I connect with was from someone who is a little fed up with IMBA and the lack of results from them. Sierra Club and some people in the USFS are not satisfied with 110,000,000 acres of wilderness. they want more and more and are continuing to close off areas for access using a "wilderness action". looks like IMBA is scared to sue because if they lose than it sets a precedent. what are we gonna do?

    that comment:
    >>>
    My thoughts: Completely unsatisfied w IMBAs approach to Wilderness (main reason I don’t support them anymore). I’m sure they have to be politically pragmatic & play w the current landscape but seriously minimal effort to rally the troops. We may not have the big national #s but I’m sure we have more passion, enthusiasm & untapped potential to make a dent in this politically motivated, exclusionary, back room BS.

    Why with our #’s hasn’t there been a national campaign to galvanize support on this topic ? I’m not talking about gaining access to current WAs but to stop the constant push for more & more WAs. See these WA all or nothing types never stop. They want more & more & more. They aren’t content w the millions if prime acres they already have. That’s the problem. These are not fair & equitable people they’re selfish, sometimes liars & have been falsely self appointed as to determine non-motorized use in the USA.

    I’d like to see a coordinated effort between IMBA, the bike industry & media to Educate the average Joe (who knows not abut this bs policy) & to actually fight this policy. I think IMBAs policy on this is a whimper & seeing their name on support for future WAs is disheartening.

    WA policy is outdated & people need to be made aware of that. We have so many riders. Their numbers are greater but demographics are on our side big time. They are mostly dinosaurs. Look at what’s been new & transformed just in the last decade. Skateboarding & snowboarding -once fringe now mainstream. Marijuana – revolution happening from the ground up. Goodness gracious we’re simply talking about riding a frickin bicycle (a healthy thing). & if it’s about $$ well we’ve revitilized many towns too.

    So yeah, a national, representative group that would light the fire under the ass on this issue would be great. It’d probably result in more bike sales because this type if stuff can breed enthusiasm which is contagious. And IMBA thanks a lot for all that you do ! This issue just wreaks of outdated BS & looking at all the high alpine from the front range of which almost none can be bicycled on, sucks. Thanks for readin
     
  7. CarlS

    CarlS Member

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Name:
    Carl
    Current Bike:
    Walmart $50 special
    ....and that's really it. In reality, the type of MTBer that goes into the back country is not a "storm trooper" but more of a hippy hiker type. You are not going bikepacking with a full face helmet and pads, although this is the common misprerception that general public has. and this is the kind of land use we are loosing. If you skimmed that other article you may have missed the previous article link here: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/05/the-daily-bike-a-look-at-the-ban-on-wilderness-mountain-biking/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.adventure-journal.com/2015/0 ... in-biking/</a>
    about the thousands of mountain bikers in Montana who were recently given the news that they were no longer welcome on 178 miles of singletrack trails in Bitterroot National Forest. these are not shuttle junkies. these are guys who love and take care of back country trails who now are being told they don't belong there. it is not even wilderness.... YET
     
  8. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    Chicken Nugget
    Current Bike:
    2018 Guerrilla Gravity SMASH
    Abano con la jungla de concrete!
     
  9. AKAKTM

    AKAKTM Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SCV
    Name:
    Tony A
    A couple of posts up, CarlS has it spot on all the way. The Sierra Club, CalWild and other wilderness and hiking groups have learned to play nice publicly, yet be very aggressive behind the scenes (passive-aggressive). They will do whatever it takes to "win" more wilderness areas at our expense. They will not yield anything to MTB riders unless we organize and oppose every time possible. The Sierra Club (and friends) will not relent and will always come back for the next incremental gain. We recently lost a battle up in Castaic with tens of thousands of acres of, largely, non-wilderness being designated RW and up for a vote to become Wilderness. Just a couple of weeks ago, the SC and friends approached CORBA and the local SCV Trail Users asking us to support tens of thousands of new wilderness they are proposing--areas we had just won as a compromise (to not make wilderness) when they got the Fish area. Now they are asking for the land they didn't get again plus additional areas all around Castaic Lake and northeast of there.

    We must organize, participate, donate, be vocal and more. We must be polite, thoughtful, accurate, considerate and undeterred. We will need to eventually hire lawyers and use courts to get what we want. The Sierra Club has been doing this for more than a decade. And, as others have said, we must uphold the highest levels of trail etiquette and live by the mission that we want safe and equal access for trail users and don't want any group discriminated against.
     
  10. Rob S.

    Rob S. Member

    Location:
    La Habra, CA
    Name:
    Rob Skinner
    I learned early in my life that the Sierra Club is not my friend. I rode motorcycles. The Sierra Club works to ban motorcycles. I shoot. The Sierra Club works to ban shooters. I rock climb. The Sierra Club works to ban rock climbers. I ride a bike. The Sierra Club works to ban bicycle riders.

    It seems odd. Nearly everyone I meet in the remote wilderness, no matter what they're doing there, is pretty cool and friendly. But if I listen to the Sierra Club, everyone belongs to a different faction that needs to be stopped. The only conclusion I can reach is that the Sierra Club is comprised of a bunch of pencil-necked suit dweebs who never venture out of their climate-controled cubes. Screw them.
     
  11. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    If the Sierra Club gets its way, no one will be able to enjoy the wonders of the natural setting. We can't ride Pacific Crest Trail; so most of us can never experience it and won't try to preserve it. It runs right through the heart of the San Gabriels...and it will disappear if it relies on hikers and SC types.

    We need to overturn the idea that a bicycle is not muscle powered. It inherently is, even if we have a chain and gears to help. WE are the engines powering our way up to our destinations, no different than the hiker muscle-powering his/her/its way up to the same place.

    I can almost...ALMOST, mind you...appreciate the ban on motorcycles.

    Horses do more damage, but are more revered. This simply speaks to the stupidity of the average homo sapiens.

    Ultimately, it will take mass disobedience to the closures to make our point and take back our access. Those who are too timid to do so, will not ride there. There comes a point where the regulators must be repulsed.

    The Sierra Club can be equated to the KGB. And no, that's not hyperbole. Their tactics are much the same, and therefore must be resisted to the extent necessary.
     
  12. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    Uhhhhh, that won't work. It will add to our lawless image and infuriate the masses. We need to embed ourselves amongst the decision makers, and lobbyists, and we need help from the corporations. Corporations run the country - they buy the politicians, they are considered "people" by law, so our good friends in the industry need to pony up the dough to play the influence peddling game so they can also continue to influence pedalers. See what I did there?
     
  13. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Don't fence me in!
    The bikepacker types even have their own brand of ass-hats: http://www.oregonbikepacking.com/the-death-of-the-oregon-outback/
    One of the problems is of course the 1% of riders who just suck, act like this, and in effect ruin it for everybody. The rest (us!!!!) need to work extra hard to make sure we're the positive face of mountain biking! Don't give SC, Irvine Co, USFS or whoever even more excuses and anecdotal examples!
     
  14. CarlS

    CarlS Member

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Name:
    Carl
    Current Bike:
    Walmart $50 special
    I think the inherent problem for those of us that want the back country wilderness experience on our bikes is that this form of mountain biking actually isn't very popular with the majority. Unfortunately, the very image that I don't like for us to have as a user group is just what feeds the fire for most riders. The Red Bull, shuttle junkie, storm trooper, foot hanging out sliding the berms, gap jumping, etc... That is what appeals to a lot of people. That and XC racing. I really don't think a majority of mountain bikers as a group really worry at all about back country access. I mean if I go up to big bear, the Snow Summit parking lot can be packed full, but when I ride my skyline loop I may only see one or two other groups of riders. I think there are only a few of us that appreciate (and maybe could complete) a 25+ mile ride in the back country. I think what we really need is more of us to realize that we are loosing access. I would like to see IMBA be more aggressive protecting our access. I would like to see some kind of educational pamphlets handed out at bike shops with info abut the subject. How about a percentage of bike sales going to a group like IMBA? More bikes, gear, and interest in bikepacking in stores. more coverage of it in magazines. The problem is that it isn't popular. Shredding the trail is what is popular. :(

    The only way to fight a war is with motivated numbers of people. Right now Sierra Club types are winning because of their numbers and a false image. Even a good friend of mine who hikes and rides can't understand what I have against the SC and REI and that's the other problem. The majority of Sierra Club supporters think they are a good thing and have no idea their real agenda. If we could only spread some more awareness.

    Oh fawk. I'm going to go cry in my beer now after reading that. we ARE doomed. what the fawk is wrong with people! arrrrggggg! :evil: :evil: :evil:
     
  15. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Don't fence me in!
    They effed up what I felt was the best organized ride of it's type. I've followed the OOB (semi) organized ride the last two years, and it looked just fantastic. But now... damn.
     
  16. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The OC, Calif
    Name:
    Andy
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Chameleon
    Funny you should say that... From an email IMBA sent out on Fri, Jun 19, 2015, subject "5 Major Misconceptions About IMBA"

     
  17. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    And I get mad when I see gel wrappers on the trails! There are some seriously messed-up people in this world.

    Thank you for sharing that article...
     
  18. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Don't fence me in!
    Hard to believe that people can't handle their business without mommy and daddy out there telling them what's right and wrong.

    Here's a much more positive review to cleanse your palate: https://donalrey.exposure.co/the-oregon-outback
     
  19. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    Per earlier comment, yes, the gap-jumping, tire skidding, Redbull Rampage image of riding does represent a sub-portion of our riding population who either aspire to ride like that, or at least admire the bravery, tricks and skills/stupidity of such riders, however I would argue that these riders typically pose no threat to getting trails closed. If they are truly hardcore shuttle/chairlift or hike-a-bike guys (and gals), then they are riding in mtb specific zones already. Nobody who rides at Snow Summit, Whistler or Squamish is a threat to trail closure because they are not conflicting with other trail users. The problem is when gravity riders get onto multi-use trails and do not change their attitude, equipment or approach. Those who shuttle Mt. Wilson or even San Juan Trail for example.

    *Thank God for me! I am a gravity rider in the bike park and on DH specific trails, and an uber-courteous, friendly trail rider who loves all hikers, joggers and equestrians when on crowded mixed-use trails (unless I accidentally almost kill a trail worker I didn't see). I also ride alone or in small groups and never in a large group on multi-use trails on crowded days. Yay me! Oh yeah, and I am incredibly handsome too. And fashionable! And funny....and....





    *(note - this is actually self-deprecating humor, poking fun at the fact that we often argue that all people should be more like ourselves. I am actually not handsome.)
     
  20. CarlS

    CarlS Member

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Name:
    Carl
    Current Bike:
    Walmart $50 special
    herzalot, my point was that not just the gravity riders but just generally a lot of mountain bikers are not concerned with these kind of trail closures and access issues. It is that only a few of us actually care. It isn't that they pose a threat and certainly It isn't a us vs them thing. it is just a awareness thing. Not many people really understand what we don't have and that we are loosing more and more of. Do we only want to ride bike parks? Or do we want to be able to ride miles and miles into remote back country and share the same wilderness experience that only the select few who are able to hike through it or ride horses. Unfortunately those of us who really care about it are very low in numbers. :(
     
  21. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    I used to ride the Colorado trail a lot. There were many sections that ran into wilderness areas where we would need to turn around and go back. That didn't bother me at the time, because it was mostly in the high alpine environment and the trials weren't very rideable anyway with scree and tight rock passages. The thought that thousands of miles of trails and hundreds of thousands of acres where there are already bike-friendly trails being given new Wilderness designation such as happened in Montana is really painful to think about. Organize and lobby. But where is Specialized? They are probably the biggest manufacturer of MtBs. Such companies should have a large portion of their profits dedicated to legislative efforts to ensure their sales of bikes (i.e. to ensure that there are lots and lots of trails). Do Trek, Giant and Cannondale do active trail advocacy?

    Looks like they do a little: <a class="postlink" href="https://store.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/whatsnew/Watts_Community_grant_toolkit_v3.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://store.specialized.com/OA_MEDIA/ ... kit_v3.pdf</a>

    <a class="postlink" href="http://www.peopleforbikes.org/pages/community-grants" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.peopleforbikes.org/pages/community-grants</a>

    <a class="postlink" href="https://www.imba.com/news/trek-game-changers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">https://www.imba.com/news/trek-game-changers</a>

    Dang it, now who am I going to blame! Wait, what are those other fingers doing pointing back at myself. Crap!
     
  22. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    That definitely makes up for the poop story... That was a "2 cup of coffee" read. :D
     
  23. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Don't fence me in!
    Glad I could share that one! The OOB is just pure magic.
     
  24. Broke and broken

    Broke and broken Newbie with Hope!

    Name:
    Greg
    The "stormtrooper" image is not at all prevalent in the broader public perception of mtb imo, athe least around here...in my experience there is no public perception of mtb at all....

    The idea that there is a user group that wishes to access certain places by bicycle, and is willing to build the required trails themselves, by hand, is inconceivable to 95% of the public. Who would do something like that, for fun?

    Yes the Sierra club engages in demonization, but that's all to Rev up their own activist base. For most voters we don't exist.

    The Wilderness Act is meant to maintain a certain kind of place in a certain way. The idea is to pretend it's 1865, and that you are John muir. It's not a bad idea and it makes for pleasant weekends in the Sierras. But in the end it is as make believe as dressing up for a star trek convention or a Ren Faire. Banning bikes from wilderness keeps the traffic down and completes the fantasy. But it's an aesthetic decision, not a moral or scientific one.

    My guess is that not many people think about it the way I do though.
     
  25. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    Thanks for that, B and B! Almost poetic. :thumbup: :clap:
     
  26. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Ed
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO
    Did somebody say poop story? Came across some mountain bikers today whose bikes pooped on the trail. Disgusting!
    bd578ae53364504edf002339b60ac0c9.jpg
     
  27. cranky

    cranky Newbie with Hope!

    Name:
    T
    Current Bike:
    Yeti ASR5c
  28. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    "Do not go where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson.

    Emerson understood what the Sierra Club does not, to wit: If you don't/can't experience it, you cannot appreciate it. If we exclude human beings from the wilderness, then human beings, en masse, won't be inclined to preserve said wilderness.

    I can experience said wilderness on my MTB, and still protect it from development. Equestrians, hikers, naturalists, birdwatchers, nudists, Gaia-worshipers, Flat-Earth-Society-members, et al, can do the same.

    My approach, however, is different: If they can't reach accommodation with me, then screw them. They must be removed from the playing field, with prejudice. I have no patience for those who would use unscientific and irrational arguments to remove me from my own land (and yes, since I'm a citizen of the united States, it's my land too). I have no sympathy with, or acceptance of, stupid people.

    Whether I choose to walk, pedal, or spur my chosen form of locomotion into the "wilderness" is no concern of theirs. It's time to shut them down, and if we will not, or cannot, play the game better than they, then we must retire from the field and accept defeat.

    I'm not gonna go there.
     
  29. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    Mr. Scissors sir, your bravado, outrage and warfare rhetoric are admirable, but by your own logic, motos and ATVs should be allowed on "our" land as US Citizens too. Might as well add 4x4s too, since it's their preferred mode of travel. Or are you willing to draw the line at engines? How about electric-assist bicycles? Not quite as simple as "It's my land and I will ride on it as I goddam please." This topic is one in which Interdependence trumps independence, and interdependence is a hell of a lot harder to achieve. I, for one, am glad that we do attempt appropriate compromise and policy-making rather than lawless occupation and assertion of rights by willpower backed by firepower.

    I am also glad we have our nifty little forum to explore and express our points of view. :wave:

    Edit: In re-reading your mini speech, I see that you mention scientific proof (of trail damage) and locomotion, so perhaps you excluded motos and atvs through those two caveats. I am not sure that calling all hikers "stupid people" and ignoring them will work very well though.
     
  30. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    I sincerely applaud our process of expression here. All are passionate (as should be) and not one of us is turning on "The Pack". As the moderator of this site, I think we should be proud of the fact we can share our frustrations on sensitive topics that can boil our blood, and focus that angst towards the subject and not each other...

    BRAVO! :clap:
     
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