RoW

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by mike, Dec 1, 2019.



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  1. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    GG Smash
    We all know the pecking order on trails. But...

    If a hiker yields to a rider who accepts that RoW, what then? Maybe it’s all amiable. But is it?

    Some peds we encountered on the trail yesterday seemed surprised (in a good way) to have their RoW. Whether or not they yielded in advance to us. Some stated how riders generally don’t give it, and offered thanks. One group started talking about how the “real” mountain bikers conduct themselves on the trail or something like that. Who knows how many did not vocalize their positive sentiment.

    We could have barreled through and gotten our ride done sooner. We saw plenty of other riders doing it. But I know for sure that by not doing that, we gave some hikers pause in painting MTBers as an inconsiderate group.

    Ruin your flow, haha. Having bikes shut out of a trail will certainly do that. Be nice to hikers. How would you feel if you had the RoW but had to constantly yield to scores of riders because you’re not assertive enough to force your hand and stand in the middle of the effing trail as riders approach? Sounds like it would make a hike less fun, and as a sometimes-hiker, I believe it does.

    After yesterday’s ride we realized that we can, with shockingly little effort, alter hikers’ perception of our user group. And it doesn’t ruin a ride, it makes the ride something different. It makes it a chance to either share or be selfish.

    Thanks and TIA for doing the right thing. :)
     
    Luis, Tom the Bomb, PATKOUG and 16 others like this.
  2. rossage

    rossage iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    East Sacramento
    Name:
    Ross Lawson
    Current Bike:
    Highball
    The ruining my flow argument is bullshıt. Stop for the hikers. It's in our best interests.
    Remember, many of these hikers are novice hikers. They have stepped out of their sterile cubicle world and steeped onto dirt and rock for the first time. Some bring their children and dogs. Out of the box, out of their element.
    Seeking flow, the mtber proudly guides their bike down the singletrack, exposure on the left, hill to the right. Hikers! It's cool, I got my bell going...
    Proud man leading his family up the trail sees a crazy person on a bike. Yes, that's how we are perceived. Careening down the rocks, hooting, skidding. The hikers have no out. The family is left clinging to rocks and roots as the anonymous biker skims by with centimeters to spare.
    A cursory, "3 more," is all that's said.
    30 seconds later, it is all over. The bikers got their momentary flow, and the hiking family got lifetime memories of a less than stellar mtb encounter.
     
  3. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    GG Smash
    Proper illustration, Ross, and solid words to ride by.

    Tons of the walkers we encountered yesterday were elderly. I love seeing people in their golden years still making the effort. I sure as hell don’t want to be a reason for them to give it up. I want to encourage them to keep at it by making our encounters positive.
     
    Luis, Tom the Bomb, Faust29 and 9 others like this.
  4. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Crescenta Valley
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    Vassago/Trek
    Cool thread, great reminder of the pecking order out on the trails.

    "RoW" would be a good song title in a song of about the topic. Get to work song writers!
     
    Luis, Tom the Bomb, Faust29 and 4 others like this.
  5. evdog

    evdog Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San diego
    Name:
    Evan S
    I don't think you have to pull over and let hikers go by to leave a good impression. Using a bell so they aren't startled and riding at a slow enough speed you don't have to slam on the brakes is very much appreciated. Slowing down to a walking pace as you pass and saying a friendly hello, thanks and asking how they're doing goes a long way too. Not only does this help remove the anonymity but it often starts a quick conversation that can make it a positive interaction. Hikers are often curious about our bikes or where we're going. If you go screaming past, the only interaction is that you perpetuate the perception that they would have been run down had they not stepped off the trail.

    If there is little room to pass, or if we're on exposed/steep/technical trail I always pull over. Otherwise I usually roll past, slowly, as pulling over when hikers have already stepped aside often results in a "You go", "No you go!" standoff.
     
    Tom the Bomb, Faust29, Mikie and 12 others like this.
  6. mtbMike

    mtbMike Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oceanside
    Name:
    Mike
    Current Bike:
    Ibis Ripmo & Intense Primer
    This^^ :thumbsup:
     
    Tom the Bomb, Faust29, Mikie and 5 others like this.
  7. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    I have no problem slowing or stopping for hikers. Always ready to give way; always give a "good morning," "great day isn't it?" etc. But my pet peeve was aggravated again today by not one, not two, but three clueless walkers with their big effing dogs off leash. I don't know the dogs. The dogs don't know me. I don't care how friendly you think they are. Leash the damn things or stay outta the forest.
     
    Tom the Bomb, Faust29, Mikie and 8 others like this.
  8. Cornholio

    Cornholio iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Usually work
    Name:
    Bort
    Current Bike:
    Like electrical current bike?
  9. mountaingirl sara

    mountaingirl sara iMTB Addict

    Location:
    So Cal
    Name:
    Sara Ford
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz 5010
    Completely agree with you guys on this, a friendly little chat like “where are you all headed?” is a game changer. In my experience the hikers relax and even seem to forget that I’m on a bike. At the end of the conversation we’re all wishing each other a great day with big smiles:)
     
    Tom the Bomb, Faust29, Mikie and 8 others like this.
  10. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    GG Smash
    I don’t believe stopping is necessary in places where one can slowly roll by. The trail we
    rode yesterday is narrow on exposed hillsides, so we had a rhythm going with the hikers. Welcome breaks between demanding rocky sections where hikers will always be standing in the wrong place.
     
  11. Daddy Dirtbag

    Daddy Dirtbag Member

    Location:
    Castaic
    Name:
    Jeff Johansen
    Current Bike:
    2016 Trek Stache 9 29+
    The biggest 'difference maker' for me when riding trails that are also popular with hikers, was attaching a trail bell. What often happened was the hikers would be standing off to the side of the trail waiting for us, exchanging pleasantries, and then thanking us for using the bell.

    My take is that they appreciated not having the poo scared out of them enough that they were happy to yield the RoW.
     
  12. CBone

    CBone Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Antelope Valley
    Name:
    Tucker
    Current Bike:
    Intense Primer
    "It's not dead, it's resting"
     
    Tom the Bomb, mike, Faust29 and 6 others like this.
  13. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Tracer and/or Who Knows?
    THIS x 1 million. Every single time I ride with an awareness bell, there are grateful hikers, gladly and calmly giving the RoW. I still slow and say hi, thank them and wish them a great day.

    A few times recently I have simply stopped and pulled over for hikers. They were SHOCKED. And that made me sad. :(
     
  14. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    Stef
    Current Bike:
    3 SC is now 2 SC.
    I always talk to the dog first... Especially if I catch a visible "harumph" from its owner on approach. It throws the ball back into the owners court, where they can choose to keep being dicky, or change course. Usually they change course.

    The exception was last week when I came around the corner on STT right into a pack of 4 pit bulls off leash. Although I did manage a few words to Tucker, who was eyeing me up like dinner.

    Edit: And I did have the Timber bell going, but the owner never heard it. Between the wind, and the curve in the trail, it was a bad combo.
     
    Tom the Bomb, herzalot, mike and 5 others like this.
  15. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    Not going to agree with this perspective. What are you afraid of? Dogs going to attack you? They would do so even if on leash - 6' to either side of a dog walker is a pretty big circle to stay outside of on a bike - assuming that owners could physically restrain their large aggressive dogs, which most can't. Sue the owners if the dogs bite you - they are forced (legally) to report their dogs as aggressive dogs, and purchase extra liability insurance. Dogs run into your line? Slow down... because if you are going too fast to avoid a dog, it means you are going too fast to avoid a child (unless you want to leash them too :) )

    Kinda like giving someone a speeding ticket if their car has the ABILITY to speed. Don't get me wrong - I can't STAND dog owners with unruly, aggressive dogs. However don't penalize everyone because of the bad actions of a minority.

    The only animal that scares me on a trail is a horse. I see a horse and if I am on a narrow trail I am 10' into the scrub, off the trail, standing still behind my bike, ready to duck/run. @Faust29 and I passed a few horseback riders a couple of weeks ago, and we were probably 20' away, chatting with the riders, when we did so :) Even the riders were nervous and telling us to "stay back, make sure the horse knows where you are, don't ride up from behind, etc".
     
  16. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    I was going plenty slow - I don't overshoot my sight lines. Having a clueless mutt amble along straight under your tires is not defensible by any owner. Tends to lead to accidents.

    The leash is required by law. If you think it's okay to run your dog unleashed on a singletrack trail then don't complain about e-bikes on singletrack.
     
    Luis, Tom the Bomb, herzalot and 3 others like this.
  17. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    Woops! Now my dog is on a leash, but you ran right into it. How has anything changed? Sounds to me like you aren't happy unless you have a guarantee that people get out of your way. How exactly do you expect someone with a leashed dog to get out of your way on a singletrack trail?
     
    Tom the Bomb and Faust29 like this.
  18. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    Never mind. You're not paying attention and making assumptions based on points I didn't raise. Have a nice day. :thumbsup:
     
  19. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Ed Bottorff
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO
  20. hill^billy

    hill^billy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Prescott
    Name:
    hill^billy
    To bite, or not to bite? That is the question?
    I’m going to bite on this thread and completely agree with @Runs with Scissors on this one, and are horses people too? No, they are animals, and of course dogs are not animals according to what I read, they are people. Ok maybe it’s because we love them more than people.:)
    So riding a fire road above my house and minding my own business , I spot one of my neighbor whom lives up the street I slightly knew, and would wave at occasionally, she was not walking her dogs, they are both off leash and out of any sort of control, two Queensland Heelers. Barking issued with hair up and charging, I had enough time to turn and ride away but the dogs soon caught me and one preceded to bite at my leg but only got my long pants, I got loose and kicked it off, then proceeded to defend myself, I stopped turned around with adrenaline pumping I then knocked the dog over with my front tire and somehow pined it under my tire while the other circled, it must have thought forget this guy, or just was not as aggressive it kept it’s distance, all at the same time I was telling the nice lady while her dog was under my tire to get her damn dogs on a damn leash and this would not happen! She had no words. I did see her a week later on the same fire road and her dogs were leashed, and they were trying to get as far away from me as they could there wasn’t even a bark. I hope you don’t have to learn the hard way with a more menacing person, I mean dog.
     
  21. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    You should have called the Police. I would have. Stupid people might not understand dog ownership, but they do understand fines and liability insurance premiums.

    Here's where I am in complete agreement with @Runs with Scissors . NO ONE should have to put up with aggressive or out-of-control dogs - at any time, in any place. I just don't think a leash is the panacea that people think it is. You put an aggressive dog on a leash... and you still have an aggressive dog with a legal 12' diameter of attack... plus whatever extra range it can get by throwing its weight against its owner.

    What people who don't train obedience don't understand: if your dog is properly leash trained, the leash should NEVER be taut. There should always be slack in the leash and the dog should be heeling. Any time a dog tightens the leash, he is giving you a big middle finger and telling you that you are not in control. So you use a leash to TRAIN a dog - not as constant behavior maintenance. If you have to use a leash to take a dog out in public - that dog is not ready to go out in public, period. Worst of all are the people who buy the "sled dog" harnesses instead of a collar and leash. They are training their dog to pull, because they ignorantly believe that the job of a leash is to physically restrain a dog - and physically restraining a dog by applying pressure to the throat is inhumane.

    So yeah, most people who own dogs don't know dick about owning a dog. And then they take their dogs out in public and bad things happen. It's nothing new, and it's not going to change. If you saw that dog attack video I posted a couple of weeks ago, it is important to note that one of two dogs was leashed - and the owner couldn't keep it from attacking.
     
    Mikie, Tom the Bomb, Faust29 and 2 others like this.
  22. hill^billy

    hill^billy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Prescott
    Name:
    hill^billy
    Wait! Never mind? People can be animals too! This world is so confusing all the time .Forget I said all of that. I need therapy, time to hit the uncrowded trail! :)
     
    Mikie, Luis, Tom the Bomb and 4 others like this.
  23. hill^billy

    hill^billy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Prescott
    Name:
    hill^billy
    Ha ha, we don’t have any police in Acton!
     
  24. Robbie

    Robbie Member

    Location:
    Anaheim
    Name:
    Rob
    Current Bike:
    2019 Santa Cruz Hightower
     
  25. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    LOL that's hilarious! I've never seen it before!

    ...and if instead of your neighbor's DOGS attacking you, if your neighbor saw you on the trail and she whipped out a knife and snarled at you, and you turned and rode away, but she (being a super-aggressive human) sprinted after you, and dove at you but only managed to cut your pants, and you managed to jump off your bike and hold her pinned to the ground, would you:
    (1) Call the Police
    (2) Laugh it off and assume she will behave better next time
    :)
     
  26. hill^billy

    hill^billy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Prescott
    Name:
    hill^billy
    There were no witnesses except for her, and we don’t have any police, so I guess laugh it off. :whistling:
     
  27. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    And that is why people continue to have crappy, aggressive dogs.

    Where I grew up, if you had dogs like that, they would get shot, and you would pay for the ammunition after the fact. Growing up I had an aggressive dog - not going to lie. I didn't know it until after the fact because the dog was very loving to all the kids in the family, and very protective of my mother. We lived out in rural Illinois on 2 1/2 acres of woods with a long driveway, and if anyone showed up at your door they needed to have a reason. My dog was a standard poodle, but she was big - 75 lbs. One day a couple of door-to-door sales guys showed up at the door when no one else was home except my mom and three young children. I don't know what they were selling, but my mom answered the door, said no, and went to close the door. One of the guys stuck his foot in the door to prevent it from being closed. Big mistake.

    But when I say our dog was aggressive, she didn't like other dogs. She killed a German Schnauzer that continually wandered onto our property. Every now and then she would get loose and go down to a neighbor's farm and kill chickens. We would always buy / pay for the chickens, but in retrospect we should have bought our neighbor a new barn for being so patient with us.

    So growing up I had a certain naive experience with dogs. Then I served in the Army with mean dogs... the attack dogs at the nuke sites where "if I take you off leash" means "kill someone". Then I worked in the professional pet food industry - where I worked with dog talent for commercials - as well as obedience trial dogs. And suddenly, I realized what dogs had the potential to be.

    Sorry about the diatribe. I love my dogs and they love me... but they also know who the pack leader is. I would never take my dogs out in public - on leash or off - if I didn't feel 100% accountable for their behavior.

    In a site known for derails... this has become a huge derail. I should probably start a new thread on dog training and "how you know the dog you are approaching on the trail is a bad dog" because I do :) Tomorrow I will post a video of my youngest border collie obeying hand signals. Spoken commands are so 2018 :)
     
    Mikie, Luis, Faust29 and 3 others like this.
  28. CBone

    CBone Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Antelope Valley
    Name:
    Tucker
    Current Bike:
    Intense Primer
    What was this thread about again? :)
    Herding dogs get really excited about bikers and skateboarders. Ours sure did. Sounds like you handled it and the owner learned
     
    Mikie, Luis, Tom the Bomb and 3 others like this.
  29. rossage

    rossage iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    East Sacramento
    Name:
    Ross Lawson
    Current Bike:
    Highball
    Be nice to other trail users.
    It has been said.
    You will heed the rule of the trail or be banished to a hell of your own making.
     
  30. hill^billy

    hill^billy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Prescott
    Name:
    hill^billy
    Yep!
     
    Mikie and mike like this.



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