One More eBike Debate

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mikie, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Yeti ASR5c, SC Hightower
    Love. Grace.
    I personally fail in it every day.
    It's something this world is losing. It's slipping away.

    I do my damnest to moderate this site with Love and Grace.
    I think because of my conviction to love and grace, we have a pretty good site.

    Lately, I have been struggling, as it seems, for whatever reason, there has been a lot of tension through a series of subjects. There have been people leaving, behind the scenes. There have been people leaving in a blaze of gunfire.
    I can see why moderators burn out.

    When I first started this site @mtnbikej was one of the early adopters. Like a jackwad I was bagging on the owner of that other now defunked site. Talked about him letting people down, and how he was being so, irresponsible.

    Jay responded, and it rings in my head every day, "Let's see how well you are doing after 10 years".

    Apparently that really sunk in as I remember it like it was yesterday.

    A guy shares a great story that moved me, and moved a bunch of us. Every important element was in it. Apprehension before, during, and after, even debated posting it. But his excitement was so that he wanted to share it with his family. Us... We raise him up as a hero son. Then it slowly migrates to divisive Sh!t talk. Where is the love for our fellow imtbro? Why did he have to begin to have to defend himself? We ALL know the act in black and white was outside the grey. Where is the grace? Especially when he is sharing a part of his life... with his Father. With us.

    I go out last Monday and I hop 7 illegal gates and trespass on other peoples property and I am raised up as the comeback kid. I broke the law. Thanks for the love! I mean that, but...

    Another person here admitted they ride illegal trails and no one says a word.

    Humans are THE ONLY creature that rationalize. If we all lived in an objective world, you would not have to lock your doors at night, but because we live in a "Subjective" world there are those that have no problem breaking into your house, or killing us.

    Love and Grace. For each other. Let's use it.
    If I'm failing at my own rules, call me out on it. I will apologize, I'm the last to be perfect. The very last.

    Carry on.
     
    PMORTUARY, herzalot, mtnbikej and 9 others like this.
  2. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS

    The bottom of the Blackstar trail/road is administered by OC Parks, so it is closed to Motorized Vehicles(save for the land owner and his employees). It’s been closed to motorized vehicles for decades.

    Harding is the same, except there are no properties to access along the road.
     
  3. mtbMike

    mtbMike Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oceanside
    Name:
    Mike
    Current Bike:
    Intense Tracer & Primer
    As long as this imtbtrailsville is within the boundaries of California, your claim of Utopia is currently not possible conclusion. MTB Utopia could definitely exist in the state to the north of us, the state above that has potential and the Canadian province above that is Nirvana!!
     
  4. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS

    Let’s keep politics out of the forum.
     
  5. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Rancho Santa Margarita
    Name:
    Steve
    Current Bike:
    Chameleon & Highball C
    But it's just not OC Parks... The top of Black Star is in NF land, and is listed as closed to motor vehicles on the CNF page... As is Harding and a whole bunch of others throughout the CNF.

    Why would a fire road have to be open to motorized traffic other than fire personnel?
     
  6. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Rancho Santa Margarita
    Name:
    Steve
    Current Bike:
    Chameleon & Highball C
    Opening a road into the national forest to motorcycles, cars, and e-bikes is nature? I think I like ours the way they are. :confused: I have yet to see a car on Harding.
     
  7. LLPoolJ

    LLPoolJ Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    Name:
    James Johnson
    Current Bike:
    Specy Epic and Stumpy
    Triple like
     
  8. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Yeti ASR5c, SC Hightower
    Well this is a subject as always for another thread! We can never run out of things to talk about. :thumbsup:
     
  9. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Unknown
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
  10. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Edward Bottorff
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO Plus
    Yours looks very similar to mine.

    canvas-e1535388104966-601x400.png
     
  11. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Custom XTR 29er
    Motorized vehicles are not allowed on Blackstar.
     
  12. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Unknown
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    Mine has more range! :p
     
  13. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Custom XTR 29er
    I am glad you had an awesome time with your dad! I am jealous!

    However, this is not a "transitional period" for our sport. E-bikes have been around for decades. They're called "mopeds"- small engine bicycles that may or may not require pedal assist. The line is blurred between bigger mopeds and smaller dirt bikes. The only thing "new" about an "e-bike" is electricity - while there is nothing new about the idea of a motorcycle with a small engine.

    THAT is why there is no "blurred line" in my mind between vehicles with motors - and vehicles without. To me taking an e-bike up Blackstar is the same as taking a Jeep Rubicon up Santiago Truck Trail. I can't condone the one while condemning the other. There are legal trails for motorized vehicles in Cleveland National Forest. Blackstar isn't one of them. Next time take your dad up Maple Springs and Main Divide (when they are open for vehicle traffic) :)
     
  14. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Unknown
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    While true, I see it as different. I see "eBikes" as a bicycle with a motor assist, as opposed to the old mopeds which were gas vehicles with a pedal to get them going. One was intended to get you from point a to point b as a vehicle, the eBike is intended to be used like a regular bicycle, but with assistance. But...only assistance.

    I don't have an interest in one. But, my legs can carry me farther and often times faster, so they wouldn't serve me well.
     
  15. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Custom XTR 29er
    Actually no :) The term "moped" is a contraction of "motor" and "pedal". I guess with the new definitions of types of "e-bikes" California had to slot mopeds somewhere - and state of California has defined them as motorized vehicles that are not pedaled and require a license, registration and helmet. But just because California says something, doesn't mean it is so :) Historically, and in many other parts of the world, mopeds are pedaled.

    Of the three Types of e-bikes, Type II does not use pedals at all. Type I uses pedals but is legal on Class I bike paths. Type III uses pedals but is NOT legal on Class I bike paths. (So some e-bikes are not even legal on paved bike trails like the Aliso Creek trail). These are California regulations. Other states vary. With all the various types of e-bikes and classes of trails, good luck figuring it out. That is why many land managers simply state "no motorized vehicles".

    cyclemaster-advert.jpg
     
  16. Ebruner

    Ebruner Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Erik Bruner
    Current Bike:
    SC Hightower, Kona Hei Hei
    While I respect your views and opinion of my transgressions, you are incorrect about this not being a transitional period for our sport. The stigma regarding e-bikes and the access issues are generally the same issues and struggles that mountain bikes faced in the 90s and still face today in many locations. I'm not saying that e-bikes should be everywhere... but to shun those riders from the table forces further illegal usage, less rider education and more segmentation within our community, which is what already makes our community weaker then the opposing groups that try to eliminate our access.

    The reality is that the same logic that many of us are using to discredit e-bikes is the same logic that is used to keep us out of areas and limit our access. Ask the Sierra Club how they define motorized vehicles and you'd fine that you are on the wrong side of the argument from their perspective. Do I want e-bikes in the parks and trails that I ride? Of course not. However if you asked that same question of hikers and equestrians at large, they would same the same thing about us? Part of the process of transitioning this sport (maybe industry?) is understanding the core issues and understanding what is a symptom and what is a problem.

    The symptom? User groups accessing trails that are closed for use, non multi use or parks where that particular use is illegal or banned. The problem? Access issues for all user groups and demand for limited resources (trails and open spaces) that are managed by government agencies and funded by tax payer dollars. This includes accessibility for those less physically capable citizens. Ebikes aren't going away and I can see a future where an expanded mountain bike user base opens the door for discussion about trail access that we may not have now.

    Let me ask you this... if the mountain biking community (voice) becomes big enough with the influx of e-bike users that new areas are opened for bike access, are you going to protest those areas and not ride in them out of protest for the symptom that lead to that?

    While that's a reality that is hard to imagine and predict from where we are now... It would be naive to think that we aren't getting lumped together in the views of others. The harsh reality is that e-bikes pose no more or less threat then a moderately capable trail rider, riding a trail with mostly blind site lines, at speeds that are 50-70% that of what a modern 6" travel full suspension is capable of.

    What they are doing is providing access to places for new riders, that you typically had to have a wealth of experience and fitness to access. This brings with it, less seasoned trail users that are not versed in proper etiquette, safe riding techniques and trail stewardship. So again, while I respect your views and agree with you on which areas are currently legal and which are not, I feel your view is myopic and builds a wall between user groups that is no different then the wall put in front of us by other user groups.

    P.S. I would have gladly taken my father up Maple Springs... I feel it's a better ride with more of a forest feel towards the top. That being said, I did what most e-bikers do which is be selfish and outweigh my needs and desires as more important then those of others. This is obviously a pretty selfish way to do things, but in this particular case, I felt that I could do this and leave no trace and do no harm. Was I right? Confirmation bias would say no... I was conflicted while I made the rental reservation, I was conflicted when I picked the bike up, I was conflicted when we started riding up the hill and I was conflicted while I loaded this monstrosity into my truck. I hesitated posting this ride report up here for fear of judgement, ridicule and bringing attention to illegal mountain bike activities. That being said, this experience opened my eyes up to how the fate of mountain bikes will likely be tied in with the fate of e-bikes in several areas. It made me re-evaluate what I consider my definition of mountain biking. It hasn't changed my stance... but it has made me take another look at how self serving my convictions may be.
     
  17. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Custom XTR 29er
    If you don't like the rules, change the rules. Don't break the rules, and then try to justify your behavior after the fact.
     
  18. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    Not with my legs it doesn't. :(
     
  19. Ebruner

    Ebruner Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Erik Bruner
    Current Bike:
    SC Hightower, Kona Hei Hei
    Just to be clear... I'm not "trying" to justify anything. While I am by no means offended by your posts or view on this because A) you're not wrong and B) everyone is free to have and voice their opinion. I do not feel discussing this topic with you is going to being about any sort of fruitful discussion or any new perspectives. Hopefully, one day we cross paths face to face to share a ride and/or a beer, Not through a medium where the glow of a screen creates a distance between positions and opinions.

    We live in an ever divided society... to stand on a position of superiority and judge others causes us both sides to not grow and change. In order for this sport to grow, survive and thrive, we have to be ready to set aside what we thought was the singular path forward, and evaluate all sides of the issue. This sport has a tendency to be elitist, non-inclusive due to costs and shunned due to lack of community. If we intend to gain control of our electrically charged brethren, we have to understand their side of this discussion and learn how to educate and integrate.

    This post is about that, no more, no less. I respect your opinion/position and feel strongly about your right to voice it, I just wish it weren't so narrow that an objective discussion weren't so difficult to achieve.
     
    Maddog, Faust29, levity and 7 others like this.
  20. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Custom XTR 29er
    I am definitely NOT ridiculing you. I started out writing a longer post last night, but cut it to a single sentence because I didn't want to sound too negative or preachy. And trust me, you aren't alone. I see e-bikes back in the National Forest infrequently. In fact, at our charity ride last Christmas I saw at least two e-bikes in the pack, including one Type III monster that wouldn't be legal on a paved bike trail, to say nothing of a dirt non-motorized track.

    I am not saying I am against e-bikes AT ALL. I just want to make sure people follow trail rules. If we consider ourselves stewards and conservators of the trails, we need to speak with a unified voice that we will be obey the trail rules - whether we agree with them or not. Just because I am not happy with the wilderness designation for the trails in the south of the Cleveland National Forest doesn't mean I ride them. I follow the rules and work for more / better trail access when and where it makes sense. I want land managers to know that we follow the rules so that if they say something is "hands-off" they know we will respect it. I wanted this point of view to be part of this thread. But it still made me a little sad to post it - because I knew it would detract from what was otherwise an amazing experience with your dad. For that I am sorry.
     
  21. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Unknown
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    Tell that to all the people who speed every day.

    I presume you NEVER do that, at all, ever, right? No illegal trails? I know that a couple of my routinely used trails are illegal, just a blind eye is turned to them as there is 0 enforcement (right now). They are also very popular trails, even with some of the riders on this forum.

    Yeah...I still see that as an assisted bicycle, not a motorcycle.

    This is easily "sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, probably a duck" situation.

    If you can't differentiate the difference between:

    DRI1113_ELEC01_1.jpg

    and

    Pedego-Ridge-Rider-electric-bike-1.jpg

    I don't think a law or rules will help you.
     
    Maddog, bpacifica, UPSed and 3 others like this.
  22. LLPoolJ

    LLPoolJ Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    Name:
    James Johnson
    Current Bike:
    Specy Epic and Stumpy
    All this E bike talk lately. Saving for one now. Vroom vroom. Got me a foam middle finger on order also for all the haters.:cool:
     
  23. hill^billy

    hill^billy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Acton
    Name:
    Doug Lake
    Current Bike:
    Yeti SB-66
    Division! I get a chuckel out of reading the e-bike threads lately, and it’s to bad the buzz word now a days is division! United was a strong statement, but that is long gone now, so now we live with division :cry:. This topic never, never ends well and just never will! To whom it may concern? BE CAREFULL!
     
    herzalot, Maddog and Cyclotourist like this.
  24. LLPoolJ

    LLPoolJ Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    Name:
    James Johnson
    Current Bike:
    Specy Epic and Stumpy
    Man with you Apnia undercontrol its like I dont even know you anymore. Well said.
     
  25. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS
    Except I’m seeing more of these on the trails....

    2ADDECDB-635A-45F3-837D-3AD234118A99.png

    Than the Ped-Ego you posted.

    This is where the line starts to get blurred.
     
    DangerDirtyD and UPSed like this.
  26. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Chameleon
    What ever y'all do, don't bring up posting Kelly Slater stickers anywhere.

    That Sh!t's divisive!
     
    herzalot and Derkderkall like this.
  27. LLPoolJ

    LLPoolJ Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    Name:
    James Johnson
    Current Bike:
    Specy Epic and Stumpy
    Pretty bike. I am in. Do you know if they have any other colors?
     
    Maddog, littlewave, Sidewalk and 2 others like this.
  28. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    I like the story, too, but unfortunately we can't do everything we want/ everywhere we want to do it.

    If it's got a motor, it's motorized. The reason we have access to some areas, and are excluded from others, is that our bikes are "human-powered" machines. And people fought for our human-powered right to access. How do we retain that access if we accept E-bikes as part of our "non-motorized" user group?

    One thing in the OP that got my attention was how easy it seemed for your dad to ride away from you. Now trade places with him and think about how E-bikes are like two-wheeled chairlifts and how fast they cover ground under strong riders. They have the potential of multiplying each rider's impact on a given route by allowing them to do laps. They shrink trail systems. And they have riders coming at hikers from both directions. If I was a hiker on a multi-use trail, I think I'd have a hard enough time watching out for descending bikes, let alone fast bikes approaching from below.

    Lots of our roads and trails in the Cleveland started out as mining and fire prevention roads. I like that motorized vehicles are no longer allowed on many of them, and that some of them have been transitioned to single track. If motorized bikes are permitted, why wouldn't motos be? And if motos, why not cars and trucks? After all, they were there first.

    I'm sorry Maple Springs is closed and wasn't an option for you, @Ebruner . Would've had me less conflicted while reading about your experience. I could picture long rides and loops on those roads that'd be awesome to do with your dad.
     
    MattB, Faust29, Cyclotourist and 3 others like this.
  29. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Edward Bottorff
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO Plus
    Lucky you! They are not even available in the states yet.
     
    Maddog, Sidewalk and Cyclotourist like this.
  30. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Yeti ASR5c, SC Hightower
    Hey,
    I have not helped here as usual. But lets not turn a GREAT story into a product debate.
    Like I said, I can be the worse at derailments.

    I'm going to delete my stoopid posts above and lets focus on this being the awesomeness it really it is....
    :) Sound cool awesome people?
     
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