OC Parks General Meeting on 01/09 to discuss E-Bikes

Discussion in 'Trail Advocacy' started by horsebikerider, Jan 6, 2020.



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  1. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower/Yeti 5C
    I made this vow before and I’m making it again. I’m swearing off conversations about eBikes. They make me angry. Discussing eBikes with eBikers is just as dumb as attempting to reason with someone of the opposite political party.
    I’m out Brothah’s and Sistah’s! :cool:
     
  2. tick

    tick Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    The linked video really brought it home—the industry is so caught up in not missing the next big thing, they’ve lost track of the policy side, their core customers, and their long term existence. And like most industries, it sounds like the bike biz is an echo chamber with no contact with the outside world of users that interact with their product. So yeah, prepare to be ignored...
     
    NinjaDon, Mikie, Cyclotourist and 7 others like this.
  3. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Tracer and/or Megatower?
    Maybe the e-bike discussion really is like the disc brake, then full suspension then 29er progression. Projections of gloom and doom and the end of mt. biking by making bikes faster and more dangerous... Suspension and disc brakes did make bikes faster and more dangerous to other trail users, and did encourage douchebag behavior. As did STRAVA and YouTube. Can the sport withstand this latest "evolution" (read de-evolution)? I guess we shall see. We certainly won't be putting the toothpaste back in the tube. Money talks. Ironic that those who claim that government intervention is always bad are hoping for government regulation to protect our sport.
     
  4. doublewide

    doublewide iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Mark
    Current Bike:
    Ride Life Ride Giant
    [​IMG]
     
  5. littlewave

    littlewave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    Brett
    Current Bike:
    Ibis Ripley LS
    Is there an ostrich smilie?

    Did you watch the video @mtnbikej posted?
     
    Mikie, skyungjae and mtnbikej like this.
  6. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J M
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    Joe Vadeboncoeur was with Trek Bicycles for 30 years and worked in many capacities there, including the development and growth of e-bikes. Joe has an advantaged insight into e-bikes and, more relevant to our community, eMTB. Having been at the vanguard of eMTB, he is privy to their development, growth, and industry impact. Now, as the head of his local trails organization, he has the perspective of an individual that works with land managers and trail users. It is tough to think of another person with such a two-sided view on this topic.

    It very much *feels* like eMTB has become two-sided. Binary thinking is invading our brains and people have to be "for" or "against" eMTB. If you raise questions or concerns about eMTB, then you must hate e-bikes. If you don't shout curses and put them down, you must love them. This is not healthy or productive.

    Joe presents his full take on e-bikes, in particular, the offroad aspect here, on his website. I strongly encourage anyone to please take some minutes and actually read it.

    People for Bikes read his open letter and felt compelled to have Joe come and speak at their e-bike summit, held at Canyon's US headquarters. His talk was recorded and posted on YouTube. It is lengthy but here you go anyway:



    For the link averse and those who cannot spare the 20 minutes to watch the video, here are Joe's bulleted points. These have been pared down for your reading ease, if you would like to get his full picture, I again encourage you to read his letter yourself.

    Joe's Points:
    First, here are the questions he wants to be addressed by the bike industry at large:
    1)Do eMTB’s do more damage to trails than regular analog pedal bikes? Joe cites that there has been very little, to no real, research done. While he feels the impact is no different from a regular mountain bike, data talks and BS walks.

    2) What kind of trails are safe to mix pedal bikes and eMTB on the trails? Not every trail lends itself to multi-use. As mountain bikers, we know this already, that's why there are trails we can ride and trails we cannot ride. Let's examine it through an eMTB lense.

    3) Many trail groups have a history of asking land managers to allow the group to create separate trails from motorized user groups, from a safety and user experience POV. Not so much a question but Joe states that promises have been made to keep motorized transport off certain trails. Renegotiations of those agreements can be troublesome.

    4) Many trail groups have received public or private grants along the way, to build the trails they are managing. Sometimes, those grants were specific for building trails for non-motorized use. Joe points out that parsing out this section or that section of trail is simply not feasible.

    5) Class 1 e-bikes in NA are too powerful and accelerate too fast when on the top boost setting, for some trails and certainly some users. If you hold an e-bike demo on single track with forest service managers (who are not cyclists), you will quickly see this to be true. You will find yourself, as the demo manager, fearing that the demo riders will attempt the “turbo” setting. Inevitably they will use the higher settings, and they will come back terrified for the beginner cyclist on the trails and the liability situation with their land. This only reinforces the question in their mind that the trails may not have been built to handle eMTB. (this is Joe's full explanation, no editorial)

    6) There is no guarantee that the cycling industry will not upgrade the eMTB’s available to class 2 or 3 or something beyond that. In the video, Joe points out the inevitable power-war that will come about as brands compete for the buyer's attention.

    7) The industry presents that e-bikes will bring more people into cycling. I would love it if that is true, but I fear that inevitability at the same time. I do not know when the amount of use on our trails will put us over the tipping point for what can be managed.

    What is Joe proposing?

    1) There needs to be clear policy and regulations around e-bikes usages and power outputs/speeds, that include eMTB and use on trails that are not governed by the DOT of a state, not just a voluntary class structure that manufacturers agree to follow.

    2) There needs to be much more research and data on the impact to trails, impact to other users on the trail and safety statistics of mixing digital eMTB and analog pedal MTB.

    3) Trail advocacy groups can do the work, and we will do the work on the trails. But, speaking for the advocacy community, we do not have the tools or resources without the industry’s help to raise the funding necessary to ensure all of our continued access to land for trails.

    4) Stop showing eMTB shredding. In fact, statistically, nobody shreds on an MTB (e or otherwise). The majority of riders will never get their wheels off the ground or hit a huge drop or bash through a berm.

    5) Stop denying that eMTB are motorized, they are. That does not mean that the Industry needs to allow eMTB to be lumped in with other motorized vehicles. To my understanding, a class 1 eMTB puts out a maximum of 750 watts (250 watts in Europe, but that is another discussion altogether). A small motorcycle puts out a maximum of as much as 10x that amount. Although the eMTB power is a lot lower, it is still power provided by a motor. Let’s admit that an e-bike has a motor and get over that aspect. The industry also needs to stop presenting that we are somehow better than motorized users because we have to pedal to access that power. It is immaterial that a motorcycle does not have to be pedaled.

    There is much more here that Joe has presented and if you want to dig further into what he has to say, please do so before flying off the handle on your keyboard, or as Joe says "Point. Shoot. Aim."
     
    NinjaDon, tick, herzalot and 5 others like this.
  7. doublewide

    doublewide iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Mark
    Current Bike:
    Ride Life Ride Giant
    Good luck! My new E-Bike will be equipped with this!

    NEW_EMP_Shield_Vehicle_Model.jpg

    Ain't no stopping me!!
     
  8. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    I see your EMP shield and raise you 125CCs of 110dB, 70mpg trail poaching:

    maxresdefault.jpg

    :Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao
     
  9. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower/Yeti 5C
    Stop it! It makes me laugh too dahm hard!
     
  10. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower/Yeti 5C
    Ho Ho Hohhh. But little did you know, I KNEW you would have an EMP Shield, so I have countered with a EMP Shield Scrambler! You can not defy me! Bwah ha ha hah haaaahhhh!
     
  11. Danimal

    Danimal iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    GG Trail Pistol!
    Monster and rockstar! Gasoline and caffeine power FTW.
    Hey, is that his teeth grinding or the motor I hear?
     
    MrGreedom and Mikie like this.
  12. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Tallboy Upgrade
  13. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower/Yeti 5C
    I did.
    It was a good video. Not what I expected. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this will be.
     
    MrGreedom, mtnbikej and Cyclotourist like this.
  14. tick

    tick Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    Yet another kick at the dead horse: Joe suggests limiting off road ebikes to 250w. Do that, and I’m on board. That would truly just be replacing one person’s effort and it would allow the handicap placard argument to make some sense. It’s unenforceable, but it at least makes more ethical sense than giving anyone who claims disability a 1 hp motor.
     
    MrGreedom, Mikie, littlewave and 5 others like this.
  15. fos'l

    fos'l Member

    Name:
    Bob
    250w makes sense. Not quantitative, but I rode in eco or no motor yesterday (Haibike with Yamaha mid-drive). 10 miles , 1900" elevation, 1.5 hours. Pretty slow and most of you can do without assistance.
     
    MrGreedom, Mikie and Cyclotourist like this.
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