OC Parks General Meeting on 01/09 to discuss E-Bikes

Well...
This is supposed to be a Thread about the actual event with OC Parks and has "segway'ed" in an eBike discussion as they always do.
Just because I'm sick and tired of discussing eBikes does not mean we have to stop discussing them as long as it stays civil. It's when it get's personal or the perception of personal is when I would shut any thread down.

I get tired of the lies that Bike Shops, Manufacturer's, and pro eBike people claim as fact to weasel their way into non motorized trails.
I call them out to their face when I see them in places they don't belong. The blatant disregard for the law and the absolute lack of common sense for the safety concerns they promote amongst hikers, equestrians, and other real mountain bikers astounds me. How can motorized vehicles ever be a good idea on the same trails with those other trail users? It can't and will never be accepted by me. Ever...

I don't ride my bicycle on a motocross track and don't feel I should. Yeah, I could make it my RIGHT. But it's not the "right" thing to do. I would endanger every Moto dude to include myself on the track. The opposite is having motorized vehicles on a bicycle trail it poses the same concern but at the opposite spectrum. How would an eBike race feel if I entered my Mountain Bike in it? I would be real popular on the singletrack climbs. IT DON'T MIX.

In my opinion, OC Parks should ban eBikes. Period. They do not belong there. They should fine the offenders, then impound their bikes and release them after 30 days after a hefty get out of jail fine, and use the money to build more trails.

If eBikes want their County trails in OC Parks, then get permission to build them and they can be eBike specific. Los Angeles County has banned county wide off-road vehicles and have created specific places to participate such vehicles like Hungry Valley up by me. Anywhere outside of that is off limits unless specified for motorized vehicles. Should be the same for eBikes.

 

That product is bullshit and misrepresents any kind of a bicycle. They should not be using the term eBike to describe that product. Looks like fun, most likely a blast, but it should be classified as an eMoto and definitely not an eBike.

Carry on!

 

That’s funny.....whenever I see them, or someone says rider up, I always say that’s not a rider, that’s an Ebiker.

 

Well, it does say "Dirt Offroad eBike" in the header of the video. Like all the ebike proponents, they are trying to cloud the issue and muddy the waters to make the entire issue fall into a gray area.

 

+1 on all your thoughts.

The LBS should be more transparent on eMTB access and inform the buyer that riding on prohibited trails is poaching and illegal. They can even use that point to push sales of their 100% human powered bikes. At the very least, let them know where they can ride them legally (FLoop baby!).

It would make the most sense for OC parks to do an all out ban them on anything other than paved paths regardless if one is claiming disability. If you're bombing down Chutes after an easy climb on an eMTB you're probably able to do it on a regular bike too regardless if you're getting 20% from the VA for your knees. OC Parks is really missing out on a lot of money not impounding these bikes. The fines and ebikes that go to auction could probably bring in a decent revenue stream.

As for Segway's rebranding of the Sur Ron Light bee, at least their being a little more honest about it. Luna sells a pedal kit for the Sur Ron so people can jump through legal loop holes and still refer to it as an "ebike."


This is why we can't have nice trails...

 

I find it baffling that the hiking/walking groups are not showing up at these public meetings. In the Seattle area, by the early 90s, local groups (Issaquah Alps trail club), Sierra club, and other general users got mountain bikes banned from all kinds of trails. Total ban that lasts to this day. They would have loved to have a total bike ban on any county park or back country trail, but some access was maintained on the less desirable trails. My main beef with emtb is they could cause total ban on all bikes, especially since they are more difficult to identify. But it seems like the opposite: Crickets from other user groups, and land mangers/parks seem not to want to bother with enforcement. I guess the hiking zealots that were so successful in banning access 30 years ago have aged out and are maybe on ebikes themselves now.

 

Sounds about right.

 

I realized (years too late) that eMTB opinions fall into the same category as politics and religion, that is --- not to be discussed so I'll just deal in facts. Fact is riding my MTB I've seen patrols at El Moro and B* and talked to someone who was accosted at Aliso. The other parks have Rangers with too many other duties to be bothered with "e" activity. Some parks are so hard up they don't have anyone at the entrance, just request you put your money in an envelope.

 

You are correct, we’ll just stick to the facts....

Bicycles don’t have motors.

End of discussion.

 

Hey Brothah Bob!
I don't think it does fall into those categories. I think it falls more into safety and common sense for a couple of reasons. So stick with me on this.

First point:
Like J mentioned above eBikes have an energy source and a motor outside of the rider, meaning it has "a motor"... right off the bat it excludes it from non motorized trails. That is fact. No matter how they slice it, rationalize it, debate it, or manipulate it... the fact remains it has a motor. Pro eBikers want to dispute that but unfortunately there is no debate, fact remains it has a motor. I'm absolutely positive we can all agree on that. Based on that alone, eBikers want to call Mountain Bikers, haters. Wrong.

Second point:
eBikes have a velocity capability to go much faster than a human powered bike. I'm no speedster anymore, but my climbs on tough singletrack is usually around 3mph, on long grind climb fire roads anywhere from 5mph to 9mph. An eBike can easily travel at 20mph. Add that factor to Mountain Biker's descending creates a decreased reaction time and your building a recipe for reduced safety. Add in blind corners, and reduced visibility?
I have been passed on my uphill climbs by eBikes with no communication, no warning, so fast that if I would have changed line on my climb into their path I would have been hit at 20 mph. I broke my pelvis doing 15mph when I hit a tree. So... Now how do I feel about my spouse out on the trail with those people? The answer is not very good. I would never set Cathy up for riding in a motorized trail park on her bicycle. I would not put her in that danger nor would I disrespect the motorized folks.

Third Point:
Hikers and Equestrians don't even like mountain bikers, why would they embrace motorized bicycles on the same trail? This causes added compromise for our trail advocacy. Truth.

So the bottom line for me anyways, is not that it is comparable to politics, there are facts and safety that is evident and obvious. It certainly does not relate to religion in any way.
The fact remains that people who want to ride eBikes are for the most part self centered so much to the point that they will break the law, rationalize reality, self justify, and actually lie in effort to manipulate any situation so they can take care of them and them alone. They do not care about the cycling industry, they do not care about trail advocacy, they do not see the big picture. It's all about them and their self satisfaction regardless of others.

None of this is intended to insult anyone. @Voodoo Tom and I deal with a jackwad up in Santa Clarita who is always taunting the Mountain Bike Community with how many miles he gets in and how better in shape he is now in, now that he finally left Mountain Bikes for an eBike. Bullshit. He is part of the problem and not part of the solution. There are some out there that have earned the right to be on eBikes, and I would be honored to share the trail with them any time (problem is it is illegal). I'm 61 this year and with my tired old bones, I still push hard on a Mountain Bike.

Bottom line, there is a place for eBikes. But it's NOT on non motorized trails with non motorized bikes and hikers and equestrians unless it's a place that specifies exclusively for eBikes. Otherwise, they belong on the road. No politics or religion...

Having tossed out this logic and facts, STILL... eBikers will retort to this that I'm a hater and that I'm wrong. Mostly because they "feel" they have the same right to those trails... safety and truth begs to differ.

Said with friendship at heart!
Mikie

 

Thanks for reading between the lines on my post above.

 

Too many words... All the e-biker hears is Charley Brown's teacher. As he motors away, he'll label you a hater, as you say in your last line.

Seriously, though... Any discussion about legality is a win for the e-bike crowd, because it continues an open conversation that shouldn't be happening. They are already illegal on all dirt trails in Orange County parks. Yet there they are...

Oh, and I'd like to repeat that I think Mikie will shut down this thread at some point. The odds are creeping higher by the post!

 

I’ve spent too much time mulling over what I would have said at the meeting. I’ve decided that simply reading the specialized website material about the Turbo Kenevo would be the way to go. Next time...

there is a 180 degree difference between the way ebikes (ahem...“class 1...very slow...not even worth your trouble”) are pitched by the industry lobbyists (ahem, “bike clubs”) to the land managers, and the way they are marketed by bike companies to consumers.

 

Sometimes it takes words to get the point across. I'm not sure how many runs over into rambling though.

Bob and I are good. Bob is a good dude! He knows I'm not pointing my words at him. "Perspective" is the challenge here. People don't want to believe the truth. But knowing how society works... (In that constant decay of morals, integrity, character, positive purpose, being other people focused, and taking a genuine interest in others), in no time we will be listening to money as oppose to reason and eBikes will have full reign until we lose it all like we did in Los Angeles County related to free Moto land. Heck California just past a law that you can't take a shower and wash your laundry in the same day so why would we think this state has ANYTHING to do with common sense other than mongering for cash?

 

Excuse me while I have the urge to flush my toilet.

 

I sent an nice letter to OC Parks, first stating that 3 mins was not enough time in th public comments to make any real difference, then outlining my opposition to them, along with clear explanations and visual support/videos.

 

There will be a tax, a fee, and a fine for this outrage. That water is specified for the green belts and parkways you city folks call greenery!

 

You and I are in agreement for once!

 

My point about comparing eMTB discussions to religion and politics had nothing to do with right or wrong, only that it generated a lot of heat without anything positive emanating AFAICT; it's "preaching to the chorus"; on this forum everybody "votes" one way; on an "e" forum everybody the other. I'll try to resist commenting in the future. Maybe get involved in discussing something like the big baseball scandal. Disgusting, to me, the way the Dodgers (Dem Bums when I resided in New York and loved the Yankees and Giants a "few" years ago) got cheated.

 

Hahahahahaha. Gooooooooood luck with that. The only reason they have them on the sales floor is that they plan to be absolutely non transparent about their access issues. They are a more profitable and more marketable item (because “new and different”). No business is gonna shell out for the more expensive item A only to use pointing out it’s flaws as a method for selling the less profitable item B.

 

I'm with you bud!
But let me ask this simple question: Are they basing their position on feelings, or facts?
This just got posted about unruly MTB'ers that caused land closure by J...
https://www.outsideonline.com/24077..._ehQHxsYcVuacuQLAruQ2armoF4WLzyd6527xmM#close

Bad behavior and breaking the law does have consequences. We all need to be responsible together.
Posted here on imtbtrails: https://www.imtbtrails.com/forum/threads/a-few-bad-apples.9062/#post-205240

 

Like other controversial issues possibly based on emotion or some other intangible. I've been riding MTB for 35+ years and the only bad experiences in that time were five (or so) near accidents with riders barreling downhill uncontrollably toward me (all before eMTB's). In at least two instances I had to dive off my bike to avoid a collision. Now I try to ride where this can't occur, but it happened to my wife and me a few months ago by three individuals on MTB's. Never had a bad experience with an eMTB, but then again my tits don't get tweaked when one passes me on the trail. My main point is the way the discussions proceed does nothing but create animosity between groups that should be aligned. You have some lowlife individuals (read this thread to find them; who knows, probably I'm one to many readers) on both sides that are just looking for action, but are supported by their "side" anyway. There are individuals who feel that others are trespassing on their "right of way". They don't realize there are some of us who helped pave the way for MTB access. Mostly the heat is generated and neither side tries to listen and understand the other. BTW, sorry, this is mostly my opinion which might be BS.

 

Thanks as always for your input. I try to steer clear of these threads, but...

With respect, calling members here "lowlifes" kind of perpetuates what you define as a problem. And that kind of labeling has no place here – or anywhere that semi-rational people with opposing views are in discussion. I'm not some pussie who can't handle colorful language and a rough forum, but do you see the hypocrisy there? Nobody here thinks you are a lowlife. That you seem to think some here are is...Idunno, I'm at a loss there. I didn't earnestly read the thread, either, but would be surprised if @Mikie didn't/wouldn't put the hammer on anything over the line.

Happy Friday, Bob. And all.

 

No problem Bob. I've been riding since 1990... I never felt I paved the way for motorbikes on bicycle trails.
Let's throw out the negative for the sake of negative comments on both sides and focus on the root.
No heat, here are my two main concerns:
1. Are eBikes motored or not motored? Should motored vehicles be allowed on non motorized designated trails. Yes or no? Why?
2. Does it make sense to have silent vehicles capable of self propulsion of 20 mph be allowed amongst hikers and equestrians? Yes or no? Why?

 

Saw this posted on a FB Mountain Biking group that I am in. It’s not in the OC Parks, but if I understand correctly, the OC Parks is looking for guidance or input from the USFS on how to address E-Bike usage. Looks like the USFS is clear on the issue, at least down here in San Diego County. This was at Noble Canyon. I’m not for or against people that choose to ride e-bikes, but I do agree that they should only ride them where they are allowed.

 

Awesome

 

The requested guidance is from the state and federal conservation authorities, whether they consider ebikes to be prohibited from areas covered by certain agreements that prohibit motorized vehicles but admit bicycles. But props to the USFS for sticking up for reality.