LCWP TnA Trail

Discussion in 'Trail Maintenance' started by knucklebuster, Feb 3, 2017.


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  1. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    This is a real shame and I fear about how many more mountainbikers will use the current plethora of illegal trails, some of them are really messing up the wildlife and the beautiful hillsides (look at some of the DH lines straight into Emerald Canyon. That is just straight vandalism).
    This however really helps nobody. We need trails like TnA and Car Wreck. Perhaps better signage will help (showing level of difficulty). If liability was a concern, another warning sign will do too.

    Hallie is great and communication will help.

    Not sure how much communication / discussion went into this, before destroying the trail.
     
    mtnbikej, Faust29, littlewave and 4 others like this.
  2. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Okay Gentlemen,
    Hallie has responded to our concerns.
    She has graciously asked if I would like to sit down over coffee.
    She will no doubt come to our site and read this post. Remember how I always suggest that we write as if the world is going to see your post? Well...
    The world sees your posts.

    I'm going to discuss this opportunity with some members offline and develop a team to represent this area. We will conduct ourselves as gentlemen and work through the issues. :)

    Mikie
     
  3. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    I just learned that OC Parks insisted that the top of T and A (Laguna Ridge) be "returned" to its pre-trail state once the re-route of the top was done. In short. Hallie and LCF were not allowed to leave it as it was. That sucks, for obvious reasons.

    This is the third trail in the area in the last two months to meet heavy equipment, and it's by far the most drastic. (Coyote and the Meadows Connector being the other two). It's a trend that scares me and everyone who enjoys riding challenging mt bike trails.

    Dialogue will continue over beers this evening. I think the pushback on the FB site is a good thing - as long as it is civil and does not jump to conclusions. Calling names and jumping to conclusions is not helpful and relegates us to the usual internet slammers.

    Given that LCF is probably browsing this site now, that's a good thing, but civility rules apply (and I am looking at you, mirror).
     
  4. MattB

    MattB Member

    Name:
    Matt B
    Thanks for being our ambassador on this!:thumbsup: That's interesting and helpful to know that this was OC Parks' decision once the reroute was complete. I'm curious why the reroute was needed in the first place, and if OC Parks and/or LCF discussed just sticking with the original trail. Keep us posted on your discussion tonight, and let us know if there's anything we can do to help.
     
    herzalot, mtnbikej, Faust29 and 4 others like this.
  5. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    All,

    Dishonesty begat my original posts to their Facebook page. Thus, the tone.

    The Laguna Trailmix was dishonest as to why the TnA trail was tamed.

    That is just a fact.

    That is why I addressed their Facebook page as I did.

    Then, their responses were passive aggressive blameshifting and continued dishonesty.

    Then, apparently, when our exchange was over, they reached out to the tribe and told the truth.

    This happens a lot in my life. I cross examine people to put food in my mouth and keep a roof over my head.

    When people's first inclination is to spin, their next inclination is to blame shift, ad hominem and act with passive aggression , then spin some more - and then have an entirely different story after they leave the witness stand, I tend to look upon every word that comes out of their mouth with skepticism.

    I have worked with OC Parks on very difficult access issues at the highest levels and they proved to be fair and inclusive.

    Now that perhaps we know the real story, or the real story as it exists in its current formulation, I will constructively but skeptically engage.

    Perhaps the person who decided upon the spin, engaged in passive aggressive ad hominem, then spun some more was not authorized to act this way and was going rogue.

    I will constructively engage. If constructive engagement proves ineffective, I will draw upon other skills in my toolbox.

    Peace.
     
  6. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    I am guessing the "rehab" was a part of the original authorization for the re-route. But that's pure speculation.
     
    Mikie and MattB like this.
  7. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    I wasn't able to spend much time with Hallie tonight as she was working the event. She wants to sit down with a few representatives and pick our brains. She said LCF should have done a better job communicating what they were going to do, when and why.

    Like I've said before, we are fortunate that she has the position she does.

    I did get to chat up World Cup DHer Jack Moir (Australia) and I got a pretty good look at the new Tracer, which will be released Tuesday. Spoke with CEO Herrick for a while as well. Nobody asked me for my autograph. :(

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/intense-officially-announces-its-2017-factory-race-team.html
     
  8. Awesome. Communicating with trail stakeholders is key!!! I hope LCF and OC park expanded the work they do with and for mtb'ers to include trail plans prior to work. They would get donations for work to protect DH terrain
     
  9. pwe312

    pwe312 Member

    Name:
    Eric Thai
    When I first started mountain biking, that section was definitely a squirrel trap for me. I was a few months into biking, on a hardtail 29er, stock plastic pedals with no grip, no pads, and a cheap helmet. I definitely would've hurt myself if I tried to go down past that section.

    A year or two later, my skills improved dramatically so I could ride trails like this. It was a great adrenaline rush and sense of a accomplishment when I came back and was able to ride the entire trail.

    This sanitation has taken that amazing experience away from anyone else in the future and will probably lead to more injuries further down the trail for others who don't know what they are getting into.
     
  10. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    Was at the car wash getting the ride cleaned yesterday, and I run into Rodney an OC Parks employee that is usually at the Willow parking lot on Sunday mornings. Great chat!
     
  11. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    WELL SAID!
     
  12. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    Laguna Trail Mix whitewashing history like a boss! Removed the before and after pictures and my colloquy with their rep. Now, it looks like they took my first comment, and constructively reached out.
     
  13. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The OC, Calif
    Name:
    Andy
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Chameleon
    DangerDirtyD, Mikie and mtnbikej like this.
  14. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    Their FB page removed he photos and our dialogue. Luckily, I saved the before and after pics.
     
  15. pwe312

    pwe312 Member

    Name:
    Eric Thai
    I posted my comments to their Facebook page and it was also deleted. At least we got their attention.
     
    DangerDirtyD, Mikie and mtnbikej like this.
  16. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The OC, Calif
    Name:
    Andy
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Chameleon
    New update...


     
  17. MattB

    MattB Member

    Name:
    Matt B
    Their blog post (http://lagunacanyon.org/2017/02/3387/) sheds some light on the decision making process that lead to this as well as the planning, both of which went back to 2014. I wish some of us had been aware of it back then and involved when it might have been able to make a difference (which is a good lesson for us going forward, and hopefully something that this dialogue can help facilitate).

    I still question a couple of the statements made about the rationale given in their blog. The writer (Alan) states that the trail had grown to a "40-foot-wide rock-choked gully". From my memory and the pictures at the beginning of this thread, I can't think of anywhere in that upper section that approached 40' wide. I agree that it was no longer a narrow singletrack, but I would not have estimated it to be even as wide as a typical fire road in LCWP. I'm not trying to be nit-picky about the trail width, I only highlight this because I can see a much stronger argument to say a 40' wide trail is out of control compared to one that is at most as wide as a fire road. I also question the added benefit they cite of being able to ride up TnA with the more gradual grade of the reroute. I could be in the minority on this, but there are some trails like TnA, Car Wreck, 5 Oaks, etc. that I would never dream of riding up. I'm also hoping that this doesn't imply that they are going to sanitize the lower section of TnA to make it climbable.

    I'm not looking to escalate tensions on this. I only post this to give my perspective and hear from others as we learn more about it and how we can be better involved going forward. I look forward to hearing what comes out of the discussions with Hallie.
     
  18. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower

    Here ya go:

    "Laguna Ridge Trail, also known as T&A, started out life as a ranch road. For many years, this trail was a favorite of the small cadre of Laguna Beach mountain bikers, and despite its steep, fall-line alignment, it stayed a stable, narrow singletrack for over a decade through the 1980s and early 1990s.

    Starting with the wildfires in 1993 and culminating with the El Nino rains in 2010, a series of natural events and a dramatic increase in users began causing erosion problems along the trail. For those of you who have been riding since then, you’ve seen the trail change from a primitive, narrow singletrack to a 40-foot-wide rock-choked gully. For years up until the present day, these sections continued to widen as most trail users avoided the jumbled centerline and stayed on the margins, damaging the fragile native vegetation and further eroding the trailbed. If nothing was done, this damage would have continued to degrade both the trail itself and the surrounding habitat, possibly resulting in a complete closure of the entire trail.

    OC Parks and Laguna Canyon Foundation, working together to assess trails in the wilderness parks, identified Laguna Ridge as a top priority, and concluded that the first step in saving this trail would be to reroute the top section off of the fall-line to create a longer and more gradual grade. This would render the trail more sustainable and have the added benefit of being rideable uphill as well as down. LCF Staff worked closely with OC Parks in 2014 to design a reroute that would strike a balance between protecting the surrounding sensitive habitat and maximizing the user experience and long-term trail sustainability.

    LCF volunteer crews and staff worked tirelessly through the 2015-2016 season to build the 0.3-mile reroute, only to have a wildfire burn through the area in June 2016, resulting in the closure of the trail. We stabilized the new alignment by installing erosion control measures and placing brush to prevent users from shortcutting through the burned areas. Once this work was accomplished, the trail was reopened in October 2016.

    Last month (January 2017), OC Parks brought in a contractor to begin the decommissioning of the original trail alignment. The contractor used heavy equipment to break up the compacted trailbed, recontour the channelized slopes, and divert water from the old alignment to prevent further erosion. While using a backhoe to tear up a rocky slope in a wilderness park may seem extreme, it is the only practical way of addressing the scale of the damage that has been caused to this area over the life of this trail.

    LCF will soon begin work with the Orange County Conservation Corps to plant and seed this area with native plants in order to restore the impacted area to healthy native habitat as required by OC Parks’ conservation mandate. We will also be working in the burned area to help protect it as it heals from the fire. We will continue to work with our dedicated trail volunteers and OC Parks to improve and maintain this trail and the rest of our trail system so that it can withstand the increasingly heavy use it receives while minimizing impacts to the surrounding habitat.

    There is a lot of work to do, and we always welcome your involvement. Join us one of our upcoming trail volunteer days by emailing us at alan@lagunacanyon.org."
     
    DangerDirtyD, MattB and Mikie like this.
  19. knucklebuster

    knucklebuster Well-Known Member

    Location:
    34.2295° N, 117.2257° W
    Name:
    Dave
    Current Bike:
    Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail
    The most disappointing part, seems that LCF and OC Parks are planning things well in advance, but without input from user groups (I could be wrong, maybe they do include user groups in planning, but doesn't seem to be well communicated if they are.... by either OC parks or LCF). Pretty sure when they re-did Lizard trail they asked for input from user groups... Maybe we just have to ask for updates/details on the plans (?)

    It would would be sad if we woke up one day and saw pictures of lower TnA, Stairsteps or Carwreck being bulldozed because they were deemed too wide or unsustainable, only to see new switchbacked bypass trails cut with concrete paver trail beds put in, like what happened with upper TnA.
     
  20. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    Just tell the truth. No point of TnA that was dug out was 40 feet wide. At no point on the portion of TnA that was torn up by a back hoe could you even "ride around" (trust me). Once you tell a false statement, everything else that comes out of your mouth is suspect. "Saving this trail"? They created a new trail; that does not even make sense! "The added benefit of being ride-able uphill as well as down"? Are we being serious here? The trial cannot be ridden up from the bottom, unless they blow that up as well.

    When you exaggerate the reason for doing something, that means that you were not comfortable with the original reason (or you did it for a different reason).
     
  21. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Jeez so is that the new criterion for trails? that theyre able to be pedaled up??
    Nobody would really pedal up tna, carwreck, stairsteps, rattlesnake, etc even if they were smoothed out.
    HAB? Sure. Ive done that on all of those. Thats even easier to do when the trail is rocky/uneven, sorta makes steps less strain on your achilles. but pretty much everyone is gonna do the nearby fireroad climbs to get up there.
    I understand that it is a wilderness park, not a bike park, and is managed as such. Just wish theyd be honest with the specifics.
    Ill admit that, despite the fact that a few years ago I was riding that section, cleaning it and not even worrying about it; in recent years ive been avoiding it as its become more gnarly and ive become more risk-averse. still thought those that enjoyed it should have it, alongside the reroute for wussies like me.
    now to play devils advocate. Its just a short section of the trail, hopefully if they leave the lower half mostly intact (still rideable by me) ill still enjoy riding tna
     
  22. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    I got a bad feeling, Chewie...

    When OC Parks closed the Vista DH in O'Neill last fall, they completely changed the routing of the trail- making it rideable both ways. Up to the reroute, this had been strictly a downhill trail. This is the only downhill trail in the whole park...

    Not the same as the TnA, but it seems the same design philosophy was in play...
     
    MattB, DangerDirtyD, mtnbikej and 2 others like this.
  23. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    I'm sorry to have never seen this trail, but from the photos it totally looks like it was 40' wide.. if measured on a diagonal. o_O

    Actually it looks really cool, like a stone version of a frozen waterfall or a petrified stream. I'd think this steep, natural bedrock would have had interesting geological significance for explaining the nature of the park; certainly more than the plethora of geometric, man-made concrete pavers popping up on various trails.

    And though descending it would've been above my skill level, it looks totally fun to hike or run, and I've talked to plenty of riders who loved the challenge of descending it without dabbing. The value of its technical challenge for hikers, runners and cyclists seems on par to the rock climbing challenge of cliffs like Half Dome and El Cap in Yosemite Valley, and allows us as natural beings to push ourselves and improve our abilities in the natural world.

    For me, the width looks similar to many trails in both LCWP and AWCP, and narrower than many. I wish we could've been part of the discussion because any plant/habitat loss (which looks minimal) could've probably been mitigated by narrowing trails like Cholla, Meadows and Rock-It, just to name some I'm familiar with (though they're in Aliso).

    And I'm also starting to question the very concept of trails, which come with certain preconceptions and mindsets concerning sustainability, gradient, etc., preferring in some cases the designation of "routes." Routes can have an aesthetic appeal that transcends preconceptions and allows for passages like this to be preserved, enjoyed and protected. If it were up to me, I'd bring it back; but the demolition by heavy equipment, again confounding in a wilderness setting, means that it's gone for good.
     
    MattB, littlewave, pperrelle and 6 others like this.
  24. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Sooooooooo....
    Are we going to set up a meeting for Saturday with Hallie? Make it a double header and get a ride in as well?
     
  25. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    That's up to you, Mikie. It's not my park, but I fear for trails in both (all) parks. If you schedule it, I'll attend.
     
    MattB, DangerDirtyD, Mikie and 2 others like this.
  26. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Id attend if i didnt hafta work.
     
    MattB, DangerDirtyD and Mikie like this.
  27. Andy

    Andy Well-Known Member

    Location:
    The OC, Calif
    Name:
    Andy
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Chameleon
    I can add to head count

    Where and when?
     
  28. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    now we just need a Ted!
     
    DangerDirtyD, Mikie and mtnbikej like this.
  29. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    I am in Tahoe. Would love to have joined the ride !

    The key is to understand which trails are next on the agenda.

    From what an insider told me, these changes are planned a year or so in advance.

    Then to create an influence bloc of local and regional trail users.

    Still, I am going to explore the answers to a few questions: (1) I do a bit of enviro law when it intrudes into my normal practice of real estate and banking litigation and I am having a very hard time understanding how a habitat restoration specialist approved this particular restoration. I have never heard of bedrock being ripped out in a restoration project. Perhaps others with more expertise will tell me that I am wrong to be skeptical; (2) who at County demanded this; (3) when; (4) what was the decision making process; (5) which, if any, user groups were consulted, when... that type of stuff.

    When you dynamite Half-Dome (h/t Kioti), the question isn't answered by saying that the Park service made you do it. You need to look behind that decision to see how it happened and how it can be avoided in the future.

    My two centavos.
     
    MattB, DangerDirtyD, kioti and 3 others like this.
  30. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    I'm in. I have a formal business event that evening, so don't hurt me. Do you want me to set it up?
     
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As a former Amazon Associate I continue to get screwed trying to stay qualified as an Amazon Affiliate. So I quit!


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