Green... Blue... Black... Double Black... and Triple Black Diamond? Learn What to Expect.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mikie, Sep 9, 2019.


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  1. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    How to fully understand the nomenclature for ride skill set designations?
    To be honest? You got me. I have ridden Double Black Diamond rides and tried to figure out why they gave it that classification, it was that easy for me. I have also walked Triple Black Diamond Trails fearing for my life I was going to be able to drag my bike down somewhere NEAR the trail.


    It seems that the designations for skills required is going to be very "subjective" meaning it is going to be the perspective of the person and their current skillset that will determine in their own mind the level of difficulty for any given trail.

    Recently we were doing a Kernville ride, The Cannell Trail, more often called the Cannell Plunge based on the final descent to the bottom trailhead. I was asked to compare the trail to another trail. How do I do that. The Cannell is a flow trail, a Chunkfest trail, and Exposure trail, a Meadow trail, a Cruiser trail, and a Bomber trail. But when it comes to the Plunge section? How do you not misrepresent to the other person and give them the best honest answer you got?

    River rafting has it's classes. I think it goes Class 1 to Class 6. Where Class 1 is flat smooth water and Class 6 for most is porting the raft around it.


    We are always trying to grade or score the things we do. That's good if you are a mountain biker and your are thinking about trying a new trail. Not a good idea as a beginner rider to go out and venture Diamond and up rated trails, so preserving your life is a good thing.

    So why not have a solid discussion on trail rating that is comprehensive that helps the ever expanding skill sets of imtbtrails mountain bikers...
     
  2. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    This is a subject that I have struggled with for a long time. @horsebikerider is always calling me on it.

    As I became a stronger rider, many rides got easier and easier...both uphill and downhill.

    Just because it was easy for me, doesn’t mean it easy for everyone.

    I have found that I’ve kinda gone the other way. My rides are sold as more difficult than they tend to be. I’d rather you push your limits going for a ride which you expect to be much more difficult, only to find that it isn’t as bad as you think it’d be. You enjoy the ride and it builds up confidence.....win, win.

    Trails like Cannell, Palm Canyon, Noble are difficult to classify. These trails allbhave very difficult sections....but they also have sections that solid beginners could navigate.

    How does one rate a trail for the masses....I dunno.

    Best we could do I would say is be honest, best you can. I like the Newb, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced titles. Most riders can find themselves into one of those groups.

    There is always gonna be that rider that thinks he’s in a class higher than he really is. They generally learn quickly that they were wrong.

    Individual riders also have a responsibility to research a ride before hand. Just about any trail on the earth has been posted somewhere. You can pretty much find a POV video of just about any trail to get an idea of what a trail is like. It may not show you all of it, but it at least gives you a general overview of it.
     
    DangerDirtyD, Faust29, UPSed and 4 others like this.
  3. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    If I were to be talking to someone I don't know while out on the trail about trail difficulty, and they were asking me about a certain trail. I guess I would have to memorize the IMBA Trail Difficulty Rating System and "hope" they have done the same. Or maybe have a copy of this laminated so I can set it up on an easel and break out my collapsible or laser pointer.
    Here is the "official" IMBA Trail Rating Matrix:

    upload_2019-9-9_11-12-58.png
     
  4. Torrent77

    Torrent77 Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Dave
    Awesome!
    I'd like to note that all of these trails are black to me due to fitness level and especially after a cheesesteak sandwich.
     
  5. evdog

    evdog iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    San diego
    Name:
    Evan S
    Agreed on variable difficulty - do you rate to the hardest parts or to the difficulty of the majority of the trail? Similarly how do you account for riders having different skill levels or strengths and weaknesses. Do you rate the trail from the perspective of a noob, or from the perspective of the skill level you'd expect to see on that type of trail? A trail with small-med gap jumps will be easy for every 12 year old out there or do you put a black diamond on it because old school riders like me suck at jumping? How do you factor in things like exposure and lack of bypasses, that don't directly add difficulty but can mess with riders' heads and add consequence. Then is it a climbing/ descending/ rolling / two-way trail? A two-way trail might be moderately steep and technical. This could make it a black diamond climb that relatively few can clean, but might still be just a blue trail to descend. So how do you rate it, black diamond on the sign at the bottom and blue at the top? Location is another factor. That trail with gaps might be a blue trail in a bike park where there are other trails with bigger jumps to progress to; outside the park maybe it's black. A tech trail on the north shore or Squamish that is rated blue up there amid a sea of black diamond trails might be rated black down here where we don't have many trails of that difficulty. Finally, how to account for how arduous a trail is. It might not be technically difficult but could be a long trail requiring lots of exertion and commitment/preparedness to complete. Do you up the rating for that?

    So many factors and so many types and skill levels of riders to consider, it's hard to apply any set of rating criteria so it works for everyone and every trail. That's why I like the idea of split ratings (ie blue/black - trail is generally blue, but with some short black diamond sections), or better add a description on trail maps or apps to give riders an idea what to expect. For San Juan for example you might say it's blue - long climb or descent that is entirely rideable for rider of intermediate skill and good fitness, generally loose over hardpack with ruts, exposure in sections, and some switchbacks and short rock gardens; above Cocktail Rock trail is rolling with more technical sections and erosion, some sections in the trees with poison oak present. Trailforks is good for adding descriptions like this. Ratings and descriptions can help but people have to learn to expect the unexpected and take responsibility for riding within their limits.

    That IMBA table gives me a headache.
     
  6. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Front Range, San Gabes
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    YT Izzo
    Everyone who grades trails has their own opinion. Meaning, I ride trails that are graded at a specific difficulty level and they seem more like another, sometimes easier than posted, sometimes more difficult than posted.
     
  7. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    Chicken Nugget
    Current Bike:
    2018 Guerrilla Gravity SMASH
    I just ride. When the trail goes up, I pedal. When the trail goes down, I stand. When the trail veers, I turn. When the trail gets bumpy, I bounce. When the trail goes really up, I hike. When the trail goes really down, I slide.
     
  8. mtbMike

    mtbMike iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    PRESCOTT!!!
    Name:
    Mike
    Current Bike:
    Ibis HD5, Ripley & Mojo 4
    I have no idea how trails get rated by certain areas, even when those areas are ski resorts which actually have "system" for the trails during the Winter season. For *ski* trails, the resorts specifically state the the trails are resort specific so a green trail at Snow Summit may not be the same as a green trail at Sun Valley. That's why Snow Summit somehow claims they have double black ski trails when they would be blue trails at Sun Valley. I'm sure @herzalot knows what I mean.

    I don't buy IMBA's chart but give them props for actually trying. There are obviously 4-5 foot wide trails full of chunk waiting to take you out while there is 12" trail that is smooth as can but at a 15 degree grade. My best guess is that the trail gets a rating based on it's hardest section. We ran across that on our recent Oregon road trip where there were black trails that were 95% intermediate at most but had a 5% section that was advanced and the entire trail was marked as black. However, Trailforks has Cannell Plunge as a blue trail and MTB Project has it as a black trail so who knows.

    In my travels round the Western US and BC, Whistler is the only place that I've come across that has blue trails that I think would be black at 90% of other places. It seems that in the US, a trail will be marked "higher/harder" that it may actually be to keep people from getting in over there head while that wasn't the case at Whistler. I don't think I'm a true double black rider but I'll generally go down those runs without hesitation and know I can get off if necessary but that's actually rarely necessary as the trail didn't turn out to be that hard. All but one double black I rode in Whistler had some serious pucker factor sections where I was walking.
     
  9. tick

    tick Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    The old Vogel &Kuechlin guidebook rated rides across 3 or 4 dimensions. I have a 4 wheeler guidebook that does the same. That seems like the way to go. Outside of a bike park, a one dimensional circle/square/diamond approach is not informative.

    IMBA ratings should probably only be applied to IMBA built trails.

    Rating bike trails consistently is nearly impossible. Rating climbing routes is easier imo, and that’s a total mess. My favorite example is Angels Fright, in idyllwild. It was the first ever route to be rated 5.4. It is literally the standard by which all other 5.4 climbs should be judged. But if you look it up now, most rate it 5.6...And by the standards at other rocks, that’s right. But the fact is, all those other 5.6 routes are wrong, and should be downgraded...

    Please don’t tell me Summit’s double black is over rated, I was so proud of myself :)
     
  10. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    HT, FS
    It’s a sliding scale. Farther up the scale, the more sliding.


    You have to make jokes about ratings, because ratings are often a joke. The punchlines might be bigger in CO than CA. The only thing consistent about ratings is that they’re always up for debate.
     
  11. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    I think we overthink things.

    Since we have decided to use the ski area nomenclature of green, blue and black, and we are applying it to downhill, we can keep it relatively simple.

    A Green Circle trail should be one that anyone who can handle the basics of riding on a dirt path can handle. A person should know how to brake, how to shift gears and how to ride standing up. If they are only familiar with seated riding on a beach cruiser, even a Green rated trail could cause them difficulty.

    A Blue Square trail mean it gets steeper and has trail texture - small bumps, ruts, roots and perhaps slippery surfaces. Drops up to 1' in height. A person should be skilled at shifting their weight around, adjusting their line and controlling their speed under those conditions.

    A Black Diamond trail should just say "Expert Skills and Equipment Advised." Large, unavoidable obstacles, frequent drops of more than 1' steep sections, slippery and highly uneven terrain, high consequence for going off the side of the trail (exposure).

    A Double Black Diamond should also be labeled "Expert Skill and Equipment Required.High likelihood and consequence for error." May include any combination or the following: Large unavoidable drops of 2' or more, large rocks, large roots, holes, deep ruts, uneven and loose terrain, cliff exposure, tight turns, steep, gap jumps and narrow features required supreme balance.

    There is really no need for an uphill rating system because it is self regulating and misjudgment probably won't lead to serious injury. Bottom line is you probably can't ride up a properly rated black diamond trail.

    As I write this, I think the biggest difficulty is in deciding between Black Diamond and Double Black Diamond. And frankly, that's the pointy end of the stick where the rider is presumably skilled enough to make decisions for himself. Ego comes into play here, so pretty much all bets are off. If you rate a trail Double Black Diamond, then the Go Pro/social media guys will HAVE to ride it and post it.

    Some local examples:
    Green - not much in Orange County. Parts of Whiting. Parts of lower Aliso. Maybe the FLoop. Fenceline and Missing link in El Moro. Even most of the fireroads are steeper, ruttier and more slippery than I would want to rate Green.

    Blue - Rock-It, Lynx and Meadow in Aliso. Lizard, Old Emerald, Camarillo in LCWP. Maybe The Luge and some of Whiting. Much of Santiago Oaks. Lower San Juan Trail. Golden Eagle.

    Black Diamond - 5-Oaks, Car Wreck, Stair Steps, Mentally Sensitive in Aliso. Lower T and A and Rattlesnake in LCWP, some trails I am not familiar with in Santiago Oaks, Joplin. Chiquito and upper San Juan Loop, etc.
     
  12. Redman

    Redman iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Henderson, Nv
    Name:
    Kevin
    Current Bike:
    SC OG Hightower 29'r
    I don’t rate trails, I just ride them.
    Seriously though, rarely do I look at or for the trail difficulty. For example, Cannell this weekend. Before the ride I watched a bunch of videos. Looked at several maps, even downloaded one. Not once was I trying to figure out a trails rating. IMO, part of mountain biking (especially in the MOUNTAINS) is riding the unknown. I get the rating necessity. But, I’m more into knowing how long the trail is and where it ends up.
    I’ll take gentle flowing swooping turns for $100 Alex. :laugh:
     
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  13. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    HT, FS
    The less-obvious skills in "riding" technically challenging stuff are visually picking out a line(s), quickly assessing whether the options can be ridden with a modicum of safety that day, and safely dismounting in tricky spots/positions.

    Not much actual riding in that skill quiver, but with it you can mostly forego concerns about getting into something technically over your head. Going and looking at these trails is the precursor to riding them. Staying off them because your descending skills are not up to it – not at all necessary. (Like other sports, ratings generally account for the maximum difficulty, which could be a short section only.)


    The weez and I consistently seek out the hardest trails for non-airborne riders. Whether we clean every move is a different story. But we always go and try. It's fun to compare areas, trails and ratings, but it's more fun to just keep your technical edge honed to minimize ER time and make all the riding you do more casual and fun. Yes, it's an investment, but one that pays in multiple ways.
     
    Mikie, Faust29, DangerDirtyD and 4 others like this.
  14. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Front Range, San Gabes
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    YT Izzo
    So, are you for B- lines (aka, p-lines) or against them?
     
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  15. horsebikerider

    horsebikerider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Suzanne Martin
    Current Bike:
    Tallboy
    I'm right there with ya @Redman :thumbsup:
     
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  16. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    HT, FS
    The harder the features, the more common are legit, designed ridearounds. Are those B or P lines? I'm not "for" extra erosion of the trail by riders trampling the bushes because they want a smoother ride, but making a black-and-white case for or against "b" or "p" lines is not really possible considering the breadth of what's out there.

    I'm not going to complain much about any trail. People make them what they are through design, building, maintenance and use. It's a trail of impact, so I don't have a lot to say if it gets wider here, blown out there. In a perfect world it wouldn't. I'd rather see people out taking p-lines and blowing off steam than indoors not exercising.
     
    kazlx, herzalot, Danimal and 5 others like this.
  17. kazlx

    kazlx Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Tustin, CA
    Name:
    Joe
    Current Bike:
    Yeti SB5.5
    I mainly agree with the green and blues. They are usually pretty chill and there's only a notch up on the technical difficulty that usually involves basic bike handling skills. Greens are effectively dirt sidewalks, where blues can add in some bumps and jumps, small tables where you can leave the ground if you are going fast enough or want to, but there's more than enough space to avoid or navigate around. Any features are pretty much universally obviously optional. The biggest jump in skill level to me is usually from a blue to a black. Black and double black are really subjective as to where the imaginary line actually is, however, on a double black, pretty much anything is fair game. I've ridden some doubles that were absolutely insane and you were basically forced to hike unless you were comfortably flowing features you had hit multiple times.

    There's always the sliding scale. It's pretty understood that ratings here vs Canadian trails are way different. You look at a blue here compared to something like Crank It Up at Whistler and they would be considerably different and requiring different skill sets. Even Whistler itself I think is a little on the conservative/tame side when looking at off resort trails. There's not really much I'm scared of any more, in the sense of I always feel like I can either size it up and send it or hike it. It may take forever to hike down a trail, but it's always an option if you get over your head.

    The best indicator to me is people I know having already ridden a trail and where you feel you compare skill wise to them. As far as B-lines go, I think those are always going to be there, either by design or by default from riders. There will always be trails that are cool, but have that 1 or 2 features that will stop 95% of people from flowing the whole thing (this is usually a single black). I know Bootleg has a few of them. Plus a lot of other places I've ridden. Rad trails, not too bad, but 'features' you have to nut up for.
     
    Mikie, herzalot, mike and 1 other person like this.
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