Etiquette Question - building trail features

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by BigTex, Nov 1, 2017.



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  1. BigTex

    BigTex Member

    Location:
    Ladera Ranch
    Name:
    Richard
    Current Bike:
    Pivot Les
    I nearly speared myself into the dirt tonight heading down a trail I'm very familiar with at dusk. Someone had built a new jump on the main line of the trail, and I hit it with a ton of speed having not seen it (trail is in the trees and it was getting dark). Things nearly ended catastrophically, but somehow, with limited skill and a lot of luck, I rode it out. So, here's the question ... Is it kosher to build jumps on the main line of a well-traveled trail? I have no problem with the occasional alternate line with features (and there are a few on this short trail), but building a launch ramp across the main line seems like a bad idea.

    For South OCers, the trail I'm talking about is Waterworks. Probably shouldn't have been hauling ass at dusk, but this is a trail I know like the back of my hand. Or thought I did.
     
  2. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J M
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    It's not kosher to build jumps on any existing trails.

    This sort of thing really rubs me the wrong way. Someone took it upon themselves to decide that the trail wasn't too their liking, so they changed it to how they wanted it, irregardless of what the other users thought.

    You especially don't build something like that in the middle of the trail.....seen that go bad too many times.

    I've at times taken a stick, rock or just kicked jumps apart that were built into the middle of the trail.
     
  3. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    Stef
    Current Bike:
    3 SC is now 2 SC.
    Youch! That's no bueno.

    Waterworks has seen some nice improvements in the last year or two, but there seems to be quite a few local kids who like to make their own "improvements". I've seen a few large groups of them down there recently horsing around.
     
  4. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Tracer and/or Who Knows?
    No. It's not their personal playground. They have no training. There are no warnings. Chances are, they don't know that it's not OK to do so. You would think common sense would apply, but I think we ran out of that a few centuries ago. Oh hell, who am I kidding, we (the human race) never had any...
     
  5. evdog

    evdog Well-Known Member

    Location:
    San diego
    Name:
    Evan S
    Wait til you guys ride Palm canyon from Pine View...
     
  6. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J M
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower

    Pine View??? Not familiar with that.
     
  7. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Addict

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    Chicken Nugget
    Current Bike:
    2018 Guerrilla Gravity SMASH
    It’s the name of the road from where the upper Trailhead begins; as opposed to the lower-elevation Pinyon Flat Camp Ground trailhead.
     
  8. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J M
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower

    :thumbsup:
     
  9. riiz

    riiz Member

    Location:
    Redlands, CA
    Name:
    Eric
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Heckler/Killmaleon
    Someone built jumps up there?
     
  10. Danimal

    Danimal iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    GG Trail Pistol!
    I've run across this, jumps built on very familiar trails without the line of sight to see them in advance. And the builders are morons without the foresight to see how it night effect other users.

    My reaction after almost eating crap at speed was to tear them down with adrenaline fueled anger. Made be feel better and I possibly saved a life in the process.
     
  11. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    Hey @BigTex, glad you're OK!

    Questions: Does it have a good landing zone? A decent take-off? Would it be fun to hit if you knew it was there? Does it fit with the general nature of the trail?

    Seems like Waterworks has a history of jumps. If it's anything like some of the old Oakley trails, you can pretty much expect the unexpected. And with rain in the forecast, digging season has begun and new berms, drops and jumps will likely be popping up all over. Some will be official and some off-the-books, and some will work and some won't.
     
  12. BigTex

    BigTex Member

    Location:
    Ladera Ranch
    Name:
    Richard
    Current Bike:
    Pivot Les
    That's exactly what I did. There was a shovel nearby that made it easier. They'll have a hard time finding that shovel now.
     
  13. BigTex

    BigTex Member

    Location:
    Ladera Ranch
    Name:
    Richard
    Current Bike:
    Pivot Les
    Didn't really analyze it, but since I didn't die, the takeoff and landing zone must be decent. That said, if you hit it too hard, you could case the next rise in a nasty way. The trail here goes through a draw, so you drop down, go over a hump, then up the opposite bank. The launching ramp was built on the hump in the middle. Yes, I think it would be fun to hit if you knew it was there, and I wouldn't have a problem with it if it had been built on an alternate line (like the diving board off to the side where the trail drops into the draw) instead of all the way across the main line. But since it's a trail often ridden at night or in fading light as I was, it was a pretty big hazard.
     
  14. Redman

    Redman Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Cypress, Ca
    Name:
    Kevin
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Nomad CC 27.5
    Build a separate line off to the side of the main line. LCWP, Aliso & El Moro area has plenty of these. And they work well.

    Like this one on Lizards

    https://instagram.com/p/Ba967a6j-hk/
     
  15. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    Understood. The Luge has undergone changes like this in the last few years, and one of my friends hit a new jump at speed (and he's fast) and landed in the next turn, nearly flying over the side. The jump is on the main line with a go-around off to the side, and they piled rocks on the down-slope to encourage launching. We had some chats about it and they toned it down and removed the rocks. Now it can be launched, pre-jumped, or rolled. And it's fun!

    I personally like jumps and features, as long as they make sense (and can be ridden safely--think waterbars on Harding, as opposed to the harsh ones they used to have in O'Neill). And they might take some adjustment, along with a learning curve for riders. Something I'm not a fan of are "committing" jumps, with gaps, on main lines of popular trails--that are only negotiable by advanced riders.

    But outside of jumps, our trails are constantly changing, and we've got to be aware of ruts, rock slides, washouts, sinkholes; downed trees.. The fact that jumps are man-made means that they can be done poorly or well, but they can also be un-done or improved.
     
  16. no worries

    no worries Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Brad
    Current Bike:
    Jeffsy CF Pro 29
    Looped Waterworks this weekend and pretty sure I know exactly which feature you're talking about. If so, it didn't take up the full width of the trail, correct? Although it was half-way down the first downslope, so if you had chosen the right-side due to limited visibility, you'd be committed to going over it. I never took that side because it looked too thin and lippy for my weight. Probably fine for smaller riders.

    In any case, I thought it seemed out of place and somewhat poorly done. They may have advanced it since I rode on Sunday.
     
  17. dustyyoungblood

    dustyyoungblood Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Ladera Ranch
    Name:
    Dustan Baker
    Current Bike:
    Foes Mixer Trail
    I really got nothing nice to say about whomever is trying to build weak ass jumps on waterworks. I wish they understood that the land managers already gave us a huge pass by keeping it open after destroying the bmx zone and adding fencing a few years ago.
     
  18. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    Stef
    Current Bike:
    3 SC is now 2 SC.
    Kids...

    You can tell the difference between the well thought out features, the bridge, etc... This is neighborhood kids playing on the trail. I've seen groups of them down there quite a bit hanging out.
     
    DangerDirtyD and kioti like this.
  19. Danimal

    Danimal iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    GG Trail Pistol!
    I'll agree with this. Enjoy your jump!

     
  20. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    Stef
    Current Bike:
    3 SC is now 2 SC.
    Yeah... Except these are south OC kids. They usually have dad's (maybe their own) $10,000 DH bike. :confused:
     
  21. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Tracer and/or Who Knows?
    "shocks...pegs.... lucky!"

    "Eees a Sledgehammer...."
     
  22. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    Kids are running out of places to play and it's a bummer. We used to have a dirt lot the neighborhood kids would make trails and jumps in. One of my friend's kids got so excited over 1" of air! But now it's a turf park. Same with the Oakley trails, but for older kids. Closed, developed, and even our connector trail from Whiting to the Aliso Creek bike path/O'Neill Park is gone.

    I love seeing kids digging, making jumps, hanging out and using their imaginations. Playing in dirt. Yeah, they occasionally do it on existing trails and it doesn't always work, but at least they're building. When it's dangerous--take it out. When it sorta works--maybe give it some love.

    The amount of open space and access we're losing is amazing. I feel for today's kids.
     
    kazlx, Sidewalk, MattB and 9 others like this.
  23. Faust29

    Faust29 iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    Stef
    Current Bike:
    3 SC is now 2 SC.
    There may be a place for jumps in our immediate area... :whistling: Way past my skill and equipment level... I bottomed out my 120mm Recon just going around the jumps. :p
     
    kioti likes this.
  24. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Tracer and/or Who Knows?
    Don't fret, they will just create new worlds in Minecraft... (facepalm)
     
    DangerDirtyD and Faust29 like this.
  25. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    Did I mention this big kid's gonna be digging in the dirt on the STT in about an hour? Looks like the weather might actually cooperate, too. See you out there?
     
  26. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Tracer and/or Who Knows?
    If that's directed at me specifically, not this time. I've made plans with others. Don't want to flake. Thank you for your continuing selflessness! :thumbsup:
     
    kioti and Faust29 like this.
  27. dustyyoungblood

    dustyyoungblood Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Ladera Ranch
    Name:
    Dustan Baker
    Current Bike:
    Foes Mixer Trail
    I am a huge advocate for creating areas to dig. I wrote comments in a survey years ago for Aliso to dedicate 1 DH only trail that allowed for dig zones, even to supply a tool shed and empower trail fairies to take some ownership is helping manage it. It would help curb illegal digs, and build community around the zone. Win win.

    The problem with waterworks is we already had a ton of adjacent illegal trails closed, and new shitty built cuts are appearing in the small surrounding area all the time and oc parks keeps surveying the area. There is a pending land swap with RMV aimed to get us back riding the adjacent ridge. One community member started a “go fund me” to buy lumber and tools so him and his sons could afford to go build more features on the trails last year and posted it on social media.

    I am very worried I am going to arrive there and see a fenced off’d area. It would crush me.
     
  28. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    No, not at you amigo! I'm just encouraging random acts of lending a hand! We had 4 guys take time out of their ride and help for a couple hours (including Kevin @xhuskr), and got a lot of drainage type work done on the Vulture Crag's descent.

    Lots of riders on the STT this morning.. kind of an ideal day. Nice to get sort of an official "start-of-the-trail work season" day in. No damage from last night's minimal rainfall, and hopefully a little more ready for the next one.
     
    xhuskr, herzalot, mtnbikej and 4 others like this.
  29. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    I know you guys are having a tough time down there. We've lost some great riding areas and trails around here so I know where you're coming from. There are so many competing forces at play, and new trails for mountain biking (whether spontaneous or planned) don't seem to be keeping up with the demand.

    Whether it's private development, mitigation-type land protection, temporary fire closures.. you name it, we have fewer trails available. Remember the last time a new trail was built in the Cleveland NF? Me, either. I mean, maybe Yeager, but most riders can't even get to it. At the same time, we lost egress from Lower Joplin, which was much more accessible and/or technical.

    I don't have any answers. I wish the creation of new trails, and maybe dig zones like you're advocating for, was a higher priority for land managers. We're blessed with great geography and year-round riding conditions and are a mountain biking mecca because of it, but live with the constant threat of trails being closed.

    My personal solution, which doesn't sound that different than yours, is to lobby for what you love and present a positive example through your words and actions.
     
  30. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Laguna Hills
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    Someone messing with trails without approval = no bueno.

    Descending Harding at speed so that even mild water bars become significant jumps = bueno.

    It's all about the speed and the flow...
     
    mountaingirl sara likes this.
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