Endurance Nutrition

By popular request... The endurance nutrition thread! Ta-Da... Well, actually it was just Mikie, and this thread will probably get as many responses as the other nutrition threads. :lol:

In looking to get past the wall, I've started looking at nutrition options other than gels, tablets, etc... I know that I can go just fine up to the 6 hour(ish) mark, but I'm looking to get past that, and make a better showing the next time I try something like Temecula, or maybe something like the Crusher next year... And I'd really like to avoid the "gut bomb" feeling.

Mtnbikej has started experimenting with Tailwind, and I've ordered some to try... Calories and electrolytes in one. We shall see!

Any thoughts from you more experienced guys?

 

In regards to long day events I only have the Kokopelli to refer to. Being that it is roughly 50 miles per day for 3 consecutive days I think it at least begins to qualify for this conversation.
Bikerpelli did some research having conducted the Kokopelli event for the last 13-14 years based on having had multitudes of questions regarding trail nutrition.

Since I do not have that data here with me, I will adlib what I remember and then follow up later.

From the Bikerpelli sources, it was stated that a full wholesome meal to start the day is very important. A solid balance of proteins and complex carbohydrates (sugar is NOT a complex Carb, but a simple Carbohydrate).

Side Note: I can attest to this. The first year I did Koko I was thinking like a 2 hour XC racer and had a big bowl of oatmeal. Naturally around 6 hours into the first day consuming Shot Blocks and Gu's, I came completely unraveled. Bonking, hitting the wall, whatever you want to call it, I imploded and was hanging out under the largest bush I could find (it was actually a rock overhang) until I gained some kind of composer.

Next Bikerpelli suggests that you drop two tablets of Electrolytes in 100 ounces of water (camelback) and to completely eliminate Goo's, Gels, and Blocks. They stated that these items are simple carbs that spike and then immediately decay, but what's worse is they dehydrate your system (very bad). Bikerpelli also highly recommends that you drink (2) 100 ounce camelbaks in each days ride plus two water bottles (typically 24 ounces) and that you should be peeing every hour. Personally I have never been able to drink enough water to pee once every hour, ever. I'm lucky to pee twice that day no matter how much I drink.

Instead, every hour on the hour of ride time to eat a legitimate food source, Cliff Bar, PB&J, etc...

I have done this the last two years of Koko's and have been absolutely fine.

So hearing about Tailwinds, I went to the website and although I did not have a lot of time, came to the conclusion it is a "add to water" supplement only. Is this correct? Who has used it or product like it. For how long, and what are your specific instruction for use, and what is your experience in using said product...

 

Thanks guys, looking foward to read all suggestions and tips, as for me I usually drink a fruit and veggie shake at my last break at work so the calories and vitamins are in my system, usually 1 hour after my shift ends is when I start my ride, also on a short ride 1.5 hr-2hrs I prepare a mix of 2 lemons and a tbs of honey, instead of gatorade, and for me, it works.

 

I'll chime in.....

Just a little background. Have been riding since the mid 90's. Up to a few years ago I was more DH than XC. Rides were rarely over 10-15 miles. Rides that were like that usually ended bad for me.

So over the last 24 months or so, I finally got on the endurance riding kick.

My biggest problem has always been cramping, so this is where I put most of my emphasis.

Over the years I have tried all sorts of products to help out on the rides.


Electrolyte/Drink mixes: Cytomax, GU, E-Fuel, HEED, Skratch, Ultimate(?), Tailwind

Gels: Gu, Hammer, Powergel, Carboom, Clifshot

Chews: Bloks, Sportsbeans, Skratch Chews

Bars: Probably tried them all

Here is what I have found.....

Drink Mixes: Cytomax and E-Fuel are horrible....way too much sugar....you gotta have a cast iron intestinal system to not get bloating and gas. Legs cramps were still a big problem.
GU & HEED worked ok for shorter rides. Cramps were better, but after 2 hrs or so, I was fighting them again.
Skratch Labs has been my go to for the last 24 months. This is very high in sodium, and I sweat alot. They also have an option for a mix that is 6x the sodium content. They say to only use once during events over 6 hrs...have not tried that one. Cramps don't happen nearly as often. I still get them from time to time, but not like before, usually not until hours 8-10+.
Tailwind is still new to me, only used it on a few big rides.....so I cannot say Yay or Nay just yet.

Gels: They are all pretty similar, haven't found one to be night and day different than the others. Personally I go with Hammer, taste wise I think they have the edge...plus I can get them in the 26 serving jugs.


Bloks: Clif Bloks are hard to beat....been using them since they released them. Basically just a solid form of the gels...at least that is how I treat them.
Sportsbeans are kind of a novelty...they do however seem to have more sodium in them, that seems to help out.
Skratch Labs chews are still brand new and I have only tried them once. Like the Sportbeans, they seem high in sodium....which isn't a bad thing.

Bars: I stopped using them years ago. Clif Bars mostly. Just didn't care for them. Didn't find that they really did anything for me.



I have hinted in some of my RR's what my nutrition needs are, but I will add them in here.

Really long rides(all day)
First I have found that the more I rode, the longer the rides got, the less fluids I drank. Used to be a 100oz Camelbak for a 1.5 hr ride. The better shape I got into, I found that I didn't need to drink as much. (We are all different, and some need to drink more than others) For endurance rides in warm weather I pack 3x 24oz bottles, each one with 1 scoop of Skratch Labs(this is now swtiching to Tailwind)...in cooler weather it is just 2x bottles. I go through about 10-12 oz an hour. My rides are also planned so that I can refill water along the way. Usually as one bottle empties, I refill with plain water. This gets me through several hours. If I know it is gonna be 10+hrs, I sometimes bring an extra baggie of Skratch to mix in. I eat Bloks from time to time, but don't have a set schedule. I also bring along a flask full of Hammer gel. I also slice an apple into 1/8ths and bring it along. For rides that I know are gonna push near 10hrs, I will also bring a PBJ/PBH sandwich. I like the apples as a fuel/food replacement better than the bars, plus 1-2 an hour, they last for most of the ride.

Because I am usually out all day, I will make a stop at a store and treat myself to a soda of some kind(don't normally drink them), a bag a honey roasted peanuts and a Payday bar. Lots of calories burned...can put back in whatever I want.


No Really Long Rides(sub 5hr)
Usually I can get away just running 2-3 bottles of Skratch Labs, and a pack or 2 of Bloks or Hammer Gel. If it is hot, the BLoks are better, if it is cooler/cold, the gel is better. Again, I refill with water as the bottles empty, but I always make sure that I save a bottle of Skratch for the final 1/3rd of the ride....I do this with all my rides. I usually don't bring any solid foods along.



I have been reading more and more lately that the body can only physically process 200-300 calories and hour. So anything more than that, is just going to waste, or is just sitting in there like a lead weight.

From my understanding the Tailwind Nutrition is supposed to supply the body with the needed 200-300 calories and hour without the need for other supplements. Again, I have only tried it a few times, so I am withholding judgement for now. I did find that I didn't need the gels/chews during the long rides, but that a small snack seemed to help. Maybe I didn't have the mix strong enough, or I just wasn't drinking enough of it.

I don't really get into the breaking down all the nutritional facts of each product. I try them and if they work...great, if not I will try something else.

If anybody has any questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

 

Background: 42, male, 160-ish, 5-10, Cat 1 XC (mid pack on a great day), competitive age-grouper (top 10%) in endurance road/MTB events. 6k miles/year riding on road/dirt.

There's all sorts of resources on nutrition during extended 1-day rides and multi-day rides. In most cases, nutritionists and bio-physiologists disagree on the finer points, but agree on several issues:

1. You need to train your body to intake and process calories and water for extended events. This can range from 200 calories/hour on up to 400 calories/hour. More training=higher and more efficient calorie absorption.
2. For every 200-300 calories of intake, a person needs 12-16 oz of water just to process and carry calories to where they are needed. Too many calories at once can dehydrate you as water is needed for digestion and nutrient transport.
3. For most efforts under 6 hours, your muscles are using what is stored, not what you take in. What you take in does not go directly to fuel muscle function, but allows all the other body processes to continue without drawing on those stores: it allows the stored resources to be used in place.
4. For most efforts over 6 hours, you will not be able to keep up caloric/fluid intake with caloric/fluid expenditures, you're basically bailing water out of a boat that will sink faster if you push it faster. Training can make the bailing bucket bigger, or make you sink slower.
5. Everybody eats differently.

Personally, I believe that the closer the nutrient source is to how it will eventually be used in the body creates the least amount of waste, and therefore wastes the least amount of energy (this is supported by the bio-physiologists, who actually study the body chemistry, vs. the nutritionists whose sources may not be scientific). Yeah, many gels, powders, and chews are sugars and are immediately discarded as being quick-fix. Cokes, Gatorade, and similar are quick-fixers, but if you're hitting the wall, sometimes what tastes good along with the blood-sugar spike is enough to keep going as long as you keep fueling to avoid the crash when it wears off (that's why pro's always have a small can of coke in their bags on the Tours). However, sugar, fats, and proteins in its various forms is what powers the body.

I've done dozens of efforts over 6-hours and over several days. For the long, single-day efforts, 250 calories mixed in 16 oz of fluid per hour allows me to take my calories in over the course of the hour, instead of a single hit. On hotter days, anti-cramp additives (Endurolytes or similar) are added 1/hour. For protein, no more than 1/4 Clif Bar every other hour. This formula has served me well, and avoided the gut bomb/gas syndrome...both of which are symptoms of not processing your calories efficiently or properly.

Formula for last Saturday's 150-mile ride from OC-Lake Arrowhead-ish and back: GU Roctane Powder, 1-Endurolyte/Hour, Hammer Gel in a flask (1/2 doses are easier). 200 calories/hour and 32 oz of water/hour (it was over 90 degrees for about 8 hours). Water intake varies with temperature, but my calories are always primarily in powder with the gels being a secondary source. Never peed but lost 8 pounds despite a total calorie intake of 3000 and 8 liters of water during the day.

Formula for 12-hours of Temecula 3-person event: GU Roctane Powder during the lap (250 calories per 16 oz water bottle) and a Clif Bar immediately upon completing the lap...there was enough time to digest the Clif Bar between turns. Peed a few times...it wasn't that hot out in June this time around.

Bottom line: Find what works for you, and tweak it accordingly. If I followed the Bikerpelli advice, I'd be screwed, but I have a teammate who's 5-6, 130, 43 years old, who follows pretty much the Bikerpelli advice, and he's only a little slower than I am.

Happy Experimenting and Training!

 

This makes 5 replies... We're already past the two alcohol threads in this sub-forum!

I like that mtnbikej and MnmDan gave their background and "stats"; it helps to put things into perspective, and see where others have been, and where they are going. We're all at different levels, but that doesn't always come through in our forum posts. I've seen J ride, and I know the kind of shape he's in, and how fast he is both up and down, even with one gear. I didn't know exactly how fast MnMDan was... I appreciate someone with his cred taking the time to post. I will reread all the posts here, I'm sure!

My background in a nutshell-

Faust29 in July 2012: 42, Close to 300 pounds, hadn't ridden a bike in 20+ years, 5 miles on flat ground was a long ride. Hills were really out of the question. Camelback and food were a must even for 5 miles.
Faust29 in July 2015:45, Hovering around 200 pounds, but 195 is best, 5' 11", 50-65 miles is a really good ride, 8000 feet seems to be near my max right now, nutrition dialed in for the 50 milers. No clue past that. I generally don't carry much food for anything under 3 hours, maybe a granola bar or two.

I've experimented (loosely) with just about all of the gels, and powders mentioned above, but they all leave me with the "bad gut" feeling on longer rides. The only thing I've found that works for me, and keeps me feeling good afterwards, is real food- apple slices, PB&J, nuts, bananas. For hydration, I have been using the "nuun" tablets. They are good for me, but even they are rough on the stomach after a long outing. Real food isn't the best option to carry, and I'm looking for an alternative, hence the tailwind order. I'm a little skeptical about the "do it all" in one bottle approach. I know it's possible, but I really like food... And I think, mentally, I'll need to supplement somewhat.

I shall report after I've had a chance to test it out...

 

I've read that bonking/hitting the wall is from dehydration, not running out of energy. I've also read that college athletes were put through an experiment where they ran at various levels of dehydration (based on their senses, like dry spit) and that their results were consistent regardless of how dehydrated they felt. Feels like there needs to be more context to explain this, but for now I think the wisdom Mikie shared is most important--skipping meals plays a huge factor in lower performance. Breakfast should be the big meal, and not supper, IMO. Not good for us night owls who can't wake early enough to prepare a decent breakfast.

It's not too hard to get into Tailwind, since it costs less per serving than any other pre-fabbed packaged nutrition setup out there, at less than $1/serving. I plan on trying it. Skratch labs is $2 per serving in comparison, with many others being a little more than $1/serving. Looked up the ingredients in Pedialyte, Tailwind, and other alternative rehydration formulas with their formula clearly presented and looked up the cost of the ingredients of mixing it myself, and Tailwind isn't much more, unless I skip the calcium and magnesium in its formula.

Still haven't watched that movie with Brawndo... it's got electrolytes!

 

One and two years ago, I did an experiment on the other extreme: How far could I go on nothing but water, and as little of that as possible.

2013: road bike: 70.4 miles, riding time 4:28:30; total time 4:41:29, elevation gain 717 feet (all city streets and riverbed, Anaheim/Long Beach points in between). Average temp 73F.
2014: mountain bike, almost exactly same route: 68.4 miles, riding time 4:32:44; total time 4:58:53, elevation gain 571 feet. Average temp 70F.

At no time was I more than a mile or so from a convenience store.

Both times I went through just 2.5 bottles of water (small ones at that). Both times I got back to the house barely able to turn the pedals over. I was at my limit. But what I found is that you can ride pretty hard for quite a while before you use up what's stored.

 

Profile: 6'4" 52 years old, 210lbs. Been riding for 25+ years. Raced three races in beginner class in 1992 and two in 1993. I came in DFL most of the time.

My thoughts:
I can pee every 15 minutes or more.

I cramp at or around 3500' of climbing.

My bike is blue and has tiny wheels.

I am the last person of the 600 IMTB members that should dispense nutrition advice.

I like to respond to threads for no reason. :wave:

 

That is either nerves.....or you are just getting old.

 

I guess I'm just a hippy, but I like to keep it natural. Fruit, trail mix, water......
For all day adventures I like to start with pancakes because pancakes are better than oatmeal. Make sure you add in the bacon, for the protein and sodium of course. Top off with a banana and some coffee.
I set my garmin alarm for every 40 minutes to beep. This signals me to eat, even if it is just a few bites of trail mix or a clif bar. It is very important for me to keep my fuel level high, especially early in the ride.
I constantly drink. ....water. Might have a bottle filled with Gatorade for longer rides.
I like to bring along an actual sandwich for all day affairs.Watch your buddies face as he chokes down a chalk bar as you munch down on a BLT. Stay away from the tuna fish though, I'm warning you.....
For you crampers out there, get some Endurolytes. Or some other kind of electrolyte supplement. I have seen these work miracles on riders with severe cramps.

 

Two scoops of Tailwind contains 606 mg of sodium. That is equivalent to 15 endurolyte capsules. Do the math on that one.

I have been using Tailwind for over a year now. I have tried all the methods just like everybody else on this thread. Sandwiches, bars, Gu and all the stuff you need to lug around and STOP to eat. When I am riding I don't like to take many breaks and I find it a PITA to stop and eat a Gu, sandwich or bar every hour. Plus, my body seems to kinda shut down and not want food as my rides get longer than 2 hours. I have found Tailwind to simplify all my riding nutrition and electrolyte needs and it works for ME. I hope others that are trying it out like it too and that it works for them. The stuff just simply works and makes life super easy on the trail. Mix 2 or 3 scoops into your bottle and with every sip you are receiving your calories and a ton of electrolytes. When racing endurance events you don't need to stop, just swipe out a bottle from your jersey or load up your 100 ounce Camelbak with the proper mixture of Tailwind and just cruise by dudes eating Gu.

I do not use Tailwind for rides less than 1.5 hours unless it's really hot outside. Just not much need for the calories. On really hot days I'll use a scoop if a ride is less than 1.5 hours to add some of the electrolytes. When riding longer rides greater than 2 hours it's real simple, drink one bottle (about 20-24 ounces) of water mixed with 2-3 scoops of Tailwind every hour of your ride. Pretty damn easy. Love that stuff.

 

I gotta say- a handwritten note in the box is a nice way to start a business relationship. I'm looking forward to trying this out this weekend. I'm just not sure if it will be Saturday or Sunday yet. I've been thinking about J's three peak route.

Hopefully it doesn't make me pee every 15 minutes like some other guys in this thread, and I hope nothing shrinks. My tires are extra large, and I'd like to keep them that way. ;-)


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Coffee...

 

Now to start this right, you know I rarely REALLY razz you but this is a Roger Rabbit Moment for me..
But the first thing that comes to mind is this question, "Do you sit down every 15 minutes, to ...pee?" :eh:
Let's start there...

 

Notice that I said "can." It's a skill, not a necessity. :thumbup:

 

Nothing scientific here... no charts, graphs, equations or 3-D models. I only do those for baseball stats.

I loaded up two 24-oz bottles with a "100 calorie" mix of the naked Tailwind before heading out yesterday morning. 100 calories is 1/2 of a single serving pack. I'll admit that I did use my very accurate kitchen scale to get exactly 1/2 of a pack (27g) into each bottle. Each bottle contained 100 calories, 303mg salt, 88mg potassium, 14mg magnesium, and 25mg of carbohydrates. I took a pack of the berry flavor Tailwind to mix along the way, along with a couple Kashi bars, just in case.

By the time I reached Four Corners in Whiting, I was at 14 miles and a little under 2,000 feet of climbing, and I had gone through 1 full bottle. I've been working on drinking more frequently on rides, especially when it's hot and humid. This is normally the point at which I would stop and have something small to eat, and top off the bottles. In this case, however, I just filled the bottle and added 1/2 pack of the berry mix. There is a line at the midpoint of the package to make getting 1/2 easier on the trail. I'm not all that coordinated, but it seemed to work...

Off to STT... I really wasn't feeling strong today, and took it easy for most of the ride. I could have said, "I'm learning to pace myself slower for a 12 hour day". I used the 2nd naked bottle getting to the luge trailhead, climbed to the flag, and immediately set off for the Cadillac junction. I would normally stop at the Luge trailhead for a little snack. No need today, and I never felt hungry. When I reached Cadillac, I had 1/2 of a bottle left, and decided to take the shortcut down.

I really didn't need to, but I forced myself to drink the last 1/2 bottle on the easy section from the Trabuco wash back through O'Neill and home.

All totaled- 3 bottles consumed- 300 calories for a 3 1/2 hour ride- about 29 miles, and 4500 feet of climbing. No gut issues, no cramps, no dehydrated feeling, no hunger... Hopefully, next weekend, I can push it a little further, and go out for something longer. I've been thinking about a long road spin, but we shall see.

edit: taste... The naked Tailwind has a very slight mild taste to it, but there is no "overly sweet" feeling, like with some of the other mixes. I think I'm going to prefer the naked to the fruit flavors. The berry reminded me of the other electrolyte tabs out there, and I think I would get tired of it quickly.

 

I have decided to make my own, based on the World Health Organization's "Oral Rehydration Salts" formula: <a class="postlink" href="http://www.who.int/maternal_child_adolescent/documents/fch_cah_06_1/en/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.who.int/maternal_child_adole ... h_06_1/en/</a>

Basic ingredients:

Glucose or Dextrose - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008P5SVVM/?tag=imtbtrails-20 (can opt for a 50-lbs bag for $60, if you want to earn a bulk discount)
Sodium Chloride - Morton's "Salt Balance" has a good ratio of NaCl and KCl to fit what the formula calls for. Can find it in some grocery stores (Stater Bros likely has it).
Potassium Chloride - see above.
Sodium Citrate - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GLQ440E/?tag=imtbtrails-20

Get yourself some measuring tools and you're set for a long while.

Not sure what the calcium and magnesium are for exactly, but you can add them in if you wish to completely copy the Tailwind formula. Sugar (or honey) and regular table salt aren't as effective and skipping out on sodium citrate will make it less effective as well. Sugar (sucrose) is a disaccharide with part fructose, which require digestion before they are used. Honey is similar, containing the disaccharides fructose, maltose, and sucrose combined with water and glucose, and other trace nutrients. Fructose needs to be converted by the liver, to part glucose and part fat. Dextrose and glucose are monosaccharides which are immediately ready for use. Sodium citrate can balance out the acidity in the stomach, which I figure is the cause of the gut wrenching in other formulas.

 

This is how the Tailwind people claim to have gotten started... In a few years, we'll be buying our mix right from you!

 

Either that, or he just posted up a recipe for Meth. :lol:

 

Well... If it lets me ride farther...

 

And Faster.....

 

Tailwind test #2...

45 miles and just under 7,000 feet... And it was freaking hot.

I took the Camelback today, along with a "bailout bottle". Both were filled with Tailwind. No issues... no cramps, nada. This stuff is easy to use, and it seems to do the trick for me. I didn't consume any food on the ride, but I probably consumed about 1000 calories of Tailwind.

Disclaimer... I did pull the plug on the ride at mile 45. But, I don't blame this on the Tailwind. I put more responsibility on the guy who can't get out of the house early on the weekends. It was hotter than hell coming back up Skyline at noon, and it was completely exposed. I climbed slower than molasses, but I made it with no serious issues. This stuff has my vote so far.

I tried the mandarin orange today, and the flavor is very mild. If the package didn't say "orange", I probably wouldn't have known. I like that... Nothing overpowering, like the "berry" flavor.

 

I have always had a difficult time matching nutrition to the length/vertical gain of the rides I want to do. Today I tried something different. I took along apple slices, peanut butter Ritz crackers, and Gu. I also stopped at a cafe for a PBJ.

I had zero issues with having the energy to do the ride. The heat was the killer. Now, if I could just figure out a personal cooling device that would last 10 hours and make the ambient temp around the body 72 degrees, I'd be rich!!

 

...and an anti gravity belt... Been working on that one for years...

 

This is pretty much what I have been relying on for the last several months- based on J's recommendations. The apple and PB&J combination works very well for me for rides like Rwanda, Catalina, etc... I think the Tailwind is going to be a more consistent intake, though, for trying to get to the "next level".

 

What's the lead time for a Tailwind order? I probably wont be trying something radically different for next Saturday, but after that.

 

My order came in about 4 days... After I go through the single serving variety packs, I'm going to order the larger bags. So far, I like the naked and the mandarin.


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Bought some TailWind and got it in about 3-4 days. The single serving packs also.
Used it diluted at about 1/3- 1/4 strength today while in Big Bear. I think it helped me ride longer and after getting tired, stronger than otherwise.
My stomach will revolt on many things. Can't eat Clif bars, and a few other things upset it too.
No such result today, so the next longer ride ( for me anyway..) I'll use it at about 1/2 strength in the camelbak and see how it goes.

 

I will check this tailwind, because I was feeling my rt leg (for the first time ever) stiff before slitting at plantation....