Discussion with Southern California Bicyclist.... Subject: E-Bikes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mikie, Jun 10, 2016.


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  1. CalEpic

    CalEpic Member

    Name:
    Craig
    Having been on a group ride with an e-bike in the mix, I have a couple observations:
    1) Nobody - hikers, runners, equestrians, or cyclists gives a sh1t.
    2) Most people are too happy to be outside and enjoying nature to worry that someone is enjoying themselves in a different manner than them.

    Obviously, there are many on this forum that feel differently and I can respect that, I just feel they are wrong on this issue.

    I'm interested in others' opinion though on what is the more likely scenario:

    A: XC/DH Strava King of the Mountain guy blasting past a group of hikers on his way to a PR.
    or
    B: Newbie/out-of-shape cyclist on pedal assist bike ruining trails and blasting past a group of hikers?
    And of these choices, which is really the more likely one to get trails closed to cyclists? I'm pretty sure I know how most will answer, but hoping that more careful thought is given to such inflexible positions.
     
    wheezy, Mikie, kioti and 1 other person like this.
  2. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    ^^No chance there'll be an XC/DH "E-King" of the Mountain rider blasting uphill past an unsuspecting group of hikers at twice his best human-powered speed? And if crazed downhillers are a current problem, won't making it easier for them to do more laps only increase that problem?

    But there are so many variables. I don't think the statement of nobody caring is completely accurate, but low-key use can probably go mostly unnoticed. Will it stay that way? Will the Rangers and land managers continue to turn their collective cheeks to motorized bikes on non-motorized trails and roads? Is it so important or even recommended that newbies get motorized help to better enjoy a ride or keep up with a friend?

    When I first started riding I could barely get up Modjeska Grade, let alone get to the Luge. But the physical improvement and technical skills all come over time to the motivated, and with them rewards. I personally think that's worth aspiring to, but again that's only one part of the discussion.

    And speaking of inflexible?
     
    Oaken, Mikie and sir crashalot like this.
  3. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    KTM has a very sweet electric moto. The electric moto make a very loud whining noise making them very easy to identify. Personally I don't mind the sound of gas powered motos. I find the electric motos noise to be very annoying.

    When I am riding remote I like have the motos around, I have never had bad experiences on the trail with motos. When you are remote people just seem to know that we all need to be safe and help each other. Go find Belly Ache Springs Trail in Big Bear. Very sweet trail that would be long gone without the motos keeping it open.

    Dean
     
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  4. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Yah know what Craig? I truly hope I am wrong...
    If I'm not and things do go sideways. My hand is going to be really sore from slapping a lot of people...:whistling: ...hard...;)
    I'm pretty much done with the E-Bike subject...
     
    DangerDirtyD likes this.
  5. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Dean,
    Why do you keep bringing the Moto's up? What do they got to do with E-Bikes?
    Although I am not a Moto hater, come on up and take a look at the devastation they have caused on Golden Eagle. I would be real happy if they would find somewhere else to ride.
     
    CarlS, mtnbikej, kioti and 1 other person like this.
  6. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    I rode a YZ 250 a long time ago. Super fun!

    But Mikie, my first trail work project was fixing a washed out section of trail which I think was in Hungry Valley. My dad and I, plus another friend, hiked to a spot the Forest Service wanted fixed. We worked on it a couple hours and then 3 motos came through and totally destroyed it in like 30 seconds. Totally off-topic, but weird that I went back to trail work so many years later.
     
    DangerDirtyD, Oaken and Mikie like this.
  7. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    Why because of the divide the conquer equation. All trail users should unite and work for a common cause...getting more trails built. I would love to not bring e-bikes and motos up together but many lump e-bike into that category because they both have motors.

    And I do ride GE a couple times a year. I also give credit where credit is due. Kern Canyon Trail is a good example of motos taking good care of a trail system. MTBers have idiots that come into turns to hot and cause breaking bumps, MTBers that ride when the trail are muddy. It is not the tool but how the tool is used that causes the problems.

    Dean
     
  8. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    Runs with Scissors and Mikie like this.
  9. fos'l

    fos'l Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Bob
    Current Bike:
    2005 Santa Cruz Superlight
    Pretty quiet anyway compared to my huffing and puffing which is more akin to panting and gasping.
     
    wheezy and Mikie like this.
  10. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Ed
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO
    Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Seriously, I would much rather have a courteous rider pass me on an e-bike than an out of control unyielding d-bag on a regular bike. For now I'm just going to sit back and see how this all plays out.:whistling:
     
  11. hill^billy

    hill^billy iMTB Rockstah

    This could play out like the 26 in wheel played OUT!
     
    DangerDirtyD, Mikie and UPSed like this.
  12. wheezy

    wheezy Member

    Location:
    Turtle Rock
    Name:
    Todd McTallguy
    Current Bike:
    2020 NORCO Range VLT C1
    Come ride with me Mikie, you will see the light brother.
     
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  13. wheezy

    wheezy Member

    Location:
    Turtle Rock
    Name:
    Todd McTallguy
    Current Bike:
    2020 NORCO Range VLT C1
    I kinda laughed and then I was like ohhh crap, in my case, it's literally true. There ain't an ebike on the plannet that wizzees louder than I wheezes and that's a fact jack. They don't call me wheezy for nothin.
     
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  14. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    You my Brothah,
    Are "not" my concern. You have earned your stripes, you are a real mountain biker. You have paid the price of admission, developed the skills and you have earned the right to descend. You understand trail etiquette and hold our trails dear. A steward of our passion.
    I'd go "buy" you an E-Bike if I could afford it. Same with @dstepper .
    It's the "public in general" I am concerned about.
     
    mike, Oaken, skyungjae and 4 others like this.
  15. wheezy

    wheezy Member

    Location:
    Turtle Rock
    Name:
    Todd McTallguy
    Current Bike:
    2020 NORCO Range VLT C1
    If I could like ^^^ That post more than once I would. If I haven't told ya lately, you're the gosh darn man Mikie.
     
    DangerDirtyD and Mikie like this.
  16. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    I'm probably a statistical outlier, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would credit e-bikes having a strong influence in getting into regular cycling. I mean, when I first started, it was rather discouraging to get blown away by my friends who had already been riding. The e-bike allowed me to keep up, got me more time on two wheels, and I eventually did not need or want it anymore. Disc brakes probably have a lot more to do with why I got back into riding, but I really enjoy the simplicity and nimbleness of hopping on a conventional bike and just riding now that I have the skills and fitness level to do so.

    Sometimes when I'm browsing craigs or ebay, I see someone selling an e-mtb, and I often wonder if they're selling it because they've followed a similar path. Then my wife looks over my shoulder and says, "You spent X amount of dollars on that Bronson, and you're looking at other bikes?!??"
     
    Danimal, Faust29, fos'l and 1 other person like this.
  17. Louis Zegarra

    Louis Zegarra Member

    Location:
    Eastvale
    Name:
    LouisZ
    Current Bike:
    Giant Stance
    If the moped wasn't a big hit in the US like in South America or Europe, then I don't think you need to worry about that angle. If you believe there is a hoard of graffiti artist waiting for an easy means to go up a hill to vandalize then you are mistaken, they would have done it already. I have seen graffiti tagging in the most awkward places, harder to get than climbing a hill. I just think this vandalism angle is blown out of proportion.
     
    Mikie likes this.
  18. Louis Zegarra

    Louis Zegarra Member

    Location:
    Eastvale
    Name:
    LouisZ
    Current Bike:
    Giant Stance
    I think all wives say that.
     
    Mikie likes this.
  19. Louis Zegarra

    Louis Zegarra Member

    Location:
    Eastvale
    Name:
    LouisZ
    Current Bike:
    Giant Stance
    You raised a good point. Just last week I went to Marshall Canyon for the first time. It is a lovely trail, lots of oak trees, streams, roller coaster like section of trails. The problem is this trail is very narrow for being so popular with horses, hikers, and us. I was amazed how polite people were with each other.
     
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  20. chrsrnlds

    chrsrnlds Newbie

    Location:
    SoCal
    Name:
    Chris Reynolds
    Current Bike:
    Marin 4 Corners Elite
    Hi all,

    There was enough discussion on this for our editorial team to record a podcast on the subject. We outline the different arguments brought up by Mikie and myself and then open it up to our resident purist, Tim Wilson, who defends the anti-eMTB position with insights that hadn't been brought up here yet, but I'm sure will resonate with this forum. Send us any feedback as we'll be following up on this during next week's episode.

    Thanks!
    Chris Reynolds
    Editorial Director
    SCB magazine
    socalbicyclist.com
     
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  21. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    It's great that we can have a civil discussion on the issue. There are going to be pros, cons, and concerns about changes to our livelihood. Especially those that could potentially have a negative impact.

    Aside from mtbers that don't like e-bikes, have other groups brought up the issues like hikers, equestrians, etc? This whole e-bike issue might be something that could unite feuding groups with a common problem.

    I'd hate to see it go that way as I'm one of the few who have benefited from e-mtb, but only time will tell where all the chips fall.
     
    Mikie, fos'l and kioti like this.
  22. fos'l

    fos'l Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Bob
    Current Bike:
    2005 Santa Cruz Superlight
    I don't think the average hiker, walker or equestrian could tell the difference between an eMTB and a MTB if both riders were proceeding responsibly. We may as well face the fact that ebikes are part of the landscape (if not the trails) and be prepared for those anti-MTB groups to coalesce around this issue. Listened to the SCB podcast, which was even-handed (IMO); Mikie was invited to discuss the issue on a future podcast.
     
    Mikie and BeckTrex like this.
  23. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    Thanks for posting the podcast. at about 32 minutes in, they suggest hitting up Rock n Road for your e-bike needs due to the wide variety of Specialized and Felt E Mtbs that they have there. :)

    I was a little bit disappointed in the "false choice" presented: "Do you want to join the drunk hooligans yelling cheater at the Sea Otter race, or do you want to be reasonable and open minded about e-bikes?" (paraphrase) Nope. Nice try. False choice. Straw man.

    One dude on the podcast, Tim I think, seems to take a position similar to mine.
     
    sir crashalot, Oaken, tick and 4 others like this.
  24. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Chris,
    Great Podcast. I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed it.
    Some quick observations:

    - Tim rocks!
    -Where was the discussion regarding Wilderness?
    - Chris, you missed that my statement regarding spokesman-ship for Specialized and HaiBikes was intended as a glib comment. It may have been too subtle but on forums a "smiley" usually indicates jesting.
    - I think the open dialogue was balanced.
    - I also think that perspectives on both sides can potentially drive some insinuations that are not necessarily accurate.
    - One that comes to mind was suggesting that an E-Bike is not a motorized vehicle is simply inaccurate, however comparing one to a Moto to minimize the facts is a stretch.
    - Making the statement that electronic shifting in essence makes a bike motorized hurts my head in effort to comprehend that as logical.
    - On the other side I do not see trail erosion as an E-Bike factor. McGill Trail in Frazier Park is testament to the damage that regular MTB's can do to a trail.
    - Because they (E-Bikes) are here, we may as well embrace them? It's too late? Gosh that kinda grates me, like it's too late the ship is going down, may as well embrace death. ha hah! <--- (jest, once again)
    - Kelly ( I think that was the young ladies name) sounded like a 70's drug pusher when Tim said he would finally go try an E-Bike on the trail. The breathy "Yeeeehhhssssss!" was scary...
    - You can't outlaw fun? Sure you can, they do it all the time.
    - Associating my dislike for E-Bikes with drunken haters, oh my! Once you meet me you will find the absolute opposite. LOL!

    I "would indeed" like to meet and record a conversation. I think we will have an awesome fun time. I believe the conversation should be more focused on the immediate swim lane of concern:
    Definition, Legislation, Outside Perception, Potential Risk; the concerns we "should" have of outside trail user perception and how they could use that against us.

    Great discussion and a very pleasant listen.
    Mikie
     
  25. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    I have said it before.....I'll say it again.

    E-bikes will not cause more trail erosion. The e-bikes with throttles.....perhaps.

    My issue is user conflict. As it is now, hikers/horses/pedal bikers really only have to worry about high speed interactions on DH's. As most riders cannot pedal uphill at the same speeds that riders can descend, the other user groups on climbs don't really have to be concerned with uphill traffic. Let's figure on a typical climb, the average rider is going to climb at 4-8 mph(yes, some will be able to do 10-12...but they are not the average). Throw in a pedal assist e-bike capable of doing 20 mph uphill(3-5x faster), now you will have the other user groups scrambling in both directions. Yes, I do believe this to be a safety issue.

    Yes, I have seen how fast they can climb. Yes, i have seen riders climb their ebikes up steep climbs way too fast. Once again, all you have to do is watch the Specialized propaganda video to see how quickly their assist bikes can climb.
     
  26. tick

    tick Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    I was saddened by the podcast. It was irrational. You can debate whether these motorized vehicles are different enough in meaningful ways that policy makers should think about different treatment. But arguing that they really aren't motorized just means you are a victim of modern education.

    If you feel like it's not motorized, well, that's what matters, right? The motor is only there to fight output inequality! It's trail justice...it's not fair that some people can put out 400 watts, everyone deserves 400 watts.
     
  27. Cornholio

    Cornholio iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    B
    Current Bike:
    Huffy
    I thought the same thing as I listened to it.

    I also agree with what @mtnbikej said above.

    My money will be spent on non-motorized mountain bikes until I cannot ride anymore. When that time comes I will get back into golf or perhaps take up bingo. I try to stay out of these poo flinging arguments about electrical assisted motorized mountain bikes but I just don't buy the whole "we are in this together and the more the merrier" argument. Everyone gets a trophy these days and political correctness has been over corrected in my opinion.
     
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  28. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    It might take awhile, but hikers and equestrians will take notice that some or a lot of mountain bikes are flying up the climbs. And they'll be rightfully scared and angry. And once they learn that those riders are on motorized bikes and in violation of basic non-motorized trail rules, they'll be even more pissed off.

    So add another big demerit to mountain biking's scorecard. The perception- we break the rules and can't be trusted. We ride too fast, we make illegal trails, and we ride motorized vehicles illegally on non-motorized trails. And, to reiterate J's point, we're a safety problem.

    So the question is: Do we want to get ahead of this issue and preserve the goodwill we've worked so hard to achieve, or just give up and let the Ebike manufacturers and riders create new conflict, poach our non-motorized trails, and possibly jeopardize our access?
     
    Robbie, StrandLeper, herzalot and 4 others like this.
  29. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    I must not be doing it wrong because even with a e-Bike I can not fly up the climbs. My friend stjunkie still beats me up hill even when I am on a e-bike. Then he keeps going after my battery is dead. This is not a joke but very true.

    Dean
     
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  30. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    Dean, I don't think a lot of Ebike riders like yourself or @CalEpic's newbie friend are the problem here, at least from a safety standpoint. But if otherwise low-key Ebike riders are disregarding the non-motorized designations of most Orange County trails, and non-motorized trails in other areas, I think it encourages riders who will not be so low-key to go ahead and do the same. And if those riders are fast and going for KOM's on multi-use single track such as Lnyx, Rock-it, Meadows or the Luge, I think all legal users will take notice and negative consequences will ensue.
     
    Cornholio likes this.
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