Article - Should wilderness parks be closed to visitors?

Discussion in 'Trail Advocacy' started by Andy, May 28, 2018.

  1. Andy

    Andy Member

    Location:
    The OC, Calif
    Name:
    Andy
    Current Bike:
    Depends...
    I did spend sometime thinking about whether I should post this or not. For obvious reasons. But as this section is -

    "Trail Advocacy"

    and

    Support the Growth of Our Trail System. Good Stewardship is Important! Discuss it Here...

    here it is

    http://stunewslaguna.com/index.php/...es-052218?mc_cid=84ae41c10b&mc_eid=fb90f5ed44

    Specifically

    Worth keeping in mind...
     
  2. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    Excellent article by her. We really do need to encourage each other to be good stewards of this precious land. So lets really not ride those illegal trails !
    Happy Memorial Day all ! :thumbsup:
     
  3. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    It would be such a shame if this came to pass. Exactly why I don’t ride illegal trails. If my local parks didn’t allow me in, I’d probably kill myself (can’t move out of area anytime soon, nearby elderly family members depend on me-id love to move somewhere less crowded for sure). Pretty much the only thing that makes me happy is being out on the trails, riding or hiking. Can’t afford to travel to distant areas frequently. Good article, even though Hallie puts a positive spin I wonder if they’re at least tossing the idea around of closing to the public. As much of a environmentalist as I am, I don’t agree with no-access conservation. If people don’t experience and learn about the wilderness they won’t care about preserving it and neither will their children.
    However, I understgand the point of the the article , true usage has increased exponentially in recent years due to population increase and tourism, and many do not treat the parks respectfully. Read an article that this is a big problem worldwide in recent years. local peoples are starting to protest the massive overtourism that is destroying the quality of life in some areas as well as the specialness of the place. Not sure theres any real answer. OC parks only open to people with an OC address?? (No, I dont actually want that). Closed on weekends?(Usage is only high on two days a week, really. Its a different world out there on Weds when Im out tehre. Would be great for me, not for pretty much everyone else!). Charge $20 for parking?
    .... STOP HAVING CHILDREN?!!!

    Now to drop tna!
     
  4. tbarnesarc

    tbarnesarc Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Taylor
    Current Bike:
    2016 Giant Reign
    Hallie makes some really valid points as to be expected. The land managers have a strange perspective on things though. They build visitor centers and parking lots in so called "wilderness areas" which is ok to them yet get upset about unsanctioned trails being used. Most of the trails sanctioned or not existed long before the parks came to fruition. That's standard bureaucratic and hypocritical bs in my in opinion. With that said I do agree that posting unsanctioned trails on social media and strava definitely doesn't help the mtb community. Also, with Strava most people don't seem to get that they can lock down their privacy on that app; rides are invisible to anyone except your friends and same with the leaderboards. Unfortunately in modern times it's become, KOM, PR and "like" based society. Hopefully that won't be the demise of our land use access in those parks. I'll do my part to help prevent that.
     
  5. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    Ditto this.

    I also feel that given the large increase in OC population you can expect a large increase in outdoor use .
    I've said and feel that some of the conservancy Land needs to be opened up for recreation .This will take pressure off over used areas.
     
  6. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    The number of illegal trails has increased and the usage thereof. I can point to muliple trails that were not there in 2011 when i started riding here. At
    The argument that certain trails have been here for some time is not valid either. The park trails system was designed such that the habitat would not get too fragmented. Does that mean that none of the illegal trails could be adopted ? No. Hence they opened Lizard for example.
     
    Cyclotourist, Danmtchl, kioti and 4 others like this.
  7. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    I will be the pariah, and gladly.

    Laguna Coast has reached the end of its useful life as a Wilderness Park. It really is time to accept that that particular place is not a viable wilderness, but a recreation area. Redesignate it. There is no sacred history here; it began as open space that was not populated, much like other parts of Orange County in the 1960s, and morphed into the last little bit of s0-called wilderness as OC developed.

    Sorry, but development won. Maybe Whiting, and maybe Caspers can be preserved but I wouldn't bank on it. It's time to accept that people want to use these spaces and they will. There is absolutely NO reason to keep people out, unless you want houses on them.
     
    pperrelle, mtbMike, AKAKTM and 8 others like this.
  8. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    Nobody needs to stay out. Just stick to the trails, dont litter, be nice to everyone, slow down when needed. There are literally tons of trails out there. I have never gotten bored with it.

    That area has a truly unique biodiversity. We need to cherish it while being able to enjoy it. I do not favor restricted access. We have enough of that.

    We can cherish and protect nature while doing recreation.
     
  9. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Well said.
     
  10. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower/Yeti 5C
    I like the article. We do need to do our part. I do tend to agree with @tbarnesarc . It’s all sacred land until a developer with money comes in and payola’s city council to put in “much needed” housing or a shopping mall. Money talks in California.

    On Golden Eagle today I was pointing out to @Luis and Alex all the Solar Farms that have been built to supply alternative energy to LA County. Some of those areas were covered with Joshua trees “supposedly” protected by the state of California. As well, wildlife protection special interest would not allow Moto’s and off roading of any kind along with building any trail networks due to preserving wildlife sanctuaries and city and county councils bought in to that until large Federal Funding kicked in to build the solar and wind turbine farms.

    You guys have too many people down there! And... they do not respect or appreciate Mountain Biking (granted there are those of us that do not help our image).

    Isn’t Hallie the person that was over sanitizing the trails with some organization out that way?

    I have just become so cynical when it comes to California Wildlife Sanctuaries. As long as it’s politically correct, California is all over it. Next they will make it a homeless encampment.

    I don’t mean this to sound all negative. There is nothing she wrote I disagree with.
     
  11. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    Agreed. My takeaway from the article was that the immediate "solution" was to ban bikes. Then maybe ban everyone. Typical of a governmental reaction.
     
    Cyclotourist, Danmtchl, kioti and 3 others like this.
  12. tbarnesarc

    tbarnesarc Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Taylor
    Current Bike:
    2016 Giant Reign
    No disrespect but stating that there's an increase in the number of illegal trails is inaccurate. They've been around a very long time but most people didn't know about them until the last decade or so. Social media is to thank for that. There are only one or two that I can think of off hand that are actually new. Regardless the majority of illegal trails won't be adopted into the parks for various reasons such sustainability which I find ironic because most are better maintained than some of the sanctioned trails. I'm not advocating the use of illegal trails I just find the land managers "fragmented habitat" reasoning a bit of a stretch. There is an 8 lane toll road going right through the middle of that sacred habitat after all...
     
  13. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    I agree that would be so bad and so so unnecessary
     
  14. tbarnesarc

    tbarnesarc Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Taylor
    Current Bike:
    2016 Giant Reign
    Hallie is the Executive Director of the Laguna Canyon Foundation. She's on all users sides. The sanitizing trails issue was a misunderstanding based on some confusing social media posts from my recollection. They (LCF) had a meeting that some of us attended which cleared the air in our concerns. Some may not agree with how or what they've done regardless.
     
  15. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    I bought my current home 7 years ago. Right across the street was land marked as "permanent open space" with trails ,which is one main reason I bought here. It had some fun bike trails i called the Oakley berms, a freaking blast to ride on the way into and out of Whiting.
    It's now 80% completed homes and condos. The few remaining trails were torn up with a ditch witch along with a lot of native plants cut up and put on the now former trails. there are now multiple No Trespassing signs saying "protected area". WTH? it was open space before and also allowed recreation.

    A very useful area is taken away, and more population pressure on the surrounding small rec area.
    Once houses are put up you can't go back and unfortunately money seems to trump well being.
     
  16. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    Good article. Hallie is an amazing person with whom I've met on many occasions. She is not a mt. biker but understands us. She knows that if legal trails are not fun and challenging for bikes, that they will retreat to illegal trails. She stands up to daily pressure from hikers and runners to take an official stance against mt. biking, yet she defends our preferences in spite of the pressure. I will guarantee she is not advocating closing trails to anyone - she is optimistic that we can all co-exist and govern ourselves, without permits, one-way trail, designated bike only or hike only days or other such controls.

    @Mikie - it is not Hallie who is a fan of sanitizing trails. It is the lead digger and trail boss for LCF who goes overboard on "sustainability" as a reason for making trails awkward for mt. biking. He has done a really good job on some sections of trails, but others seem like he deliberately wants mt. bikes to have to slow to a crawl to negotiate off-camber bumps and awkward (and dangerous) drainage ditches. He works diligently and believes in what he's doing, but it doesn't always match what mt. bikers like.
     
  17. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    Thank you..

    The number of illegal trails has increased during the time i have lived here and that is indeed just 7 years.

    I can see now “Ants” dropping down from Newport Ridge to Newport Coast drive. A beautiful wild area now fragmented into 2.

    I can see now “Super Mario” dropping from El Moro Ridge into the canyon. Brushed off again and again, with signs and all. And still people ride them.

    And we can all see people keep riding indeed older trails like Marie Callender / Repoman, ignoring signs and brushes laid down by volunteers.

    I am aware that the majority of them had existed before but that does not make them right or change the situation. They were not adopted into the plan.

    The presence of the toll road was fought against by the same people that brought you Laguna Coast Wilderness. Alas, that didnt work out. It is irrelevant to the subject of illegal trails elsewhere.

    Fragmentation of habitat is real, it is the whole reason they even build this wildlife corridor to the Santa Anas.

    One area that should ideally be opened up is the newly acquired area surrounding Irvine Lake, “donated” by TIC (such that they can build off Jamboree/Santiago Canyon crossing).
     
    Cyclotourist, Mikie, HBkites and 5 others like this.
  18. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    Trails that were barely visible to a knowing eye two years ago are now 10 ft. wide swaths of dirt. I cannot believe how wide and visible that one drop next to 5-Oaks has gotten in the past 6 months. Same with many others. It is all thanks to YouTube, STRAVA, social media and the (mostly male) ego.

    At the current rate, I could see all bikes being banned from Aliso and LCWP in the near future. We (riders) are shooting ourselves in the foot, and most of the people from outside the area who are riding these trails to death don't even know they are possibly killing them off. Maybe they don't care either.
     
    kioti, Cyclotourist, Mikie and 6 others like this.
  19. Andy

    Andy Member

    Location:
    The OC, Calif
    Name:
    Andy
    Current Bike:
    Depends...
    Some people can't even ride them. During a TAV a few weeks ago, I spent about 5 minutes watching these clowns wander around "checking out the lines". Note the full faces.

    Photo Apr 07, 12 51 38 PM (1).jpg

    tosser1.gif
     
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  20. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Crescenta Valley
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Snake"
    Current Bike:
    Vassago/Trek
    I really wish I could get out of this state and it's two-faced, over-taxing laws. I'd much rather lived somewhere out of Cali that is "under developed".
     
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  21. Obsidian

    Obsidian Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Costa Mesa
    Name:
    Obsidian
    Current Bike:
    2017 Intense Tracer
    No trails in wilderness parks should be "illegal" in the first place, IMO. The trails themselves take up a miniscule amount of land in comparison to the rest of the acreage. Miniscule.

    Welcome to the top of Chutes Ridgeline on any weekend.
     
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  22. tbarnesarc

    tbarnesarc Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Taylor
    Current Bike:
    2016 Giant Reign
    @SingleTrackJB Again, the number of illegal trails has not increased. I have lived in Laguna and played in those hills since I was a kid at top of the world elementary when cattle occupied that land. Talk about fragmentation...Just because you didn't know about the trails in the 7 years you've lived in the area doesn't mean they didn't exist. Have they been ridden more and are now annoyingly visible than in decades prior? Definitely.

    I'm aware of how the land came to be in regards to the toll road. I was a part of the Save the Canyon movement. It was crazy how many people came out for that event. Felt like old hippy laguna that existed long before I did.

    I mean no disrespect in saying this but your statement about seeing illegal trails from newport coast was funny because that road (also a culprit of fragmentation) and those houses weren't there about 20 years ago. That's ok but the trails that formed as a result are not? I do get your passion for the land and trust me I share that with you as well. I just can't get behind cherry picking certain fragmentation as a result of infrastructure being ok yet illegal trails are the entity causing harm to the land. Newport Coast was a bad idea and so was the toll road. Both ruined sacred habitat more than some illegal trails. None are good; some are just worse than others in my opinion. I'll leave at it that and refrain from further debate on the matter kind sir.
     
    kioti, Cyclotourist, Redman and 10 others like this.
  23. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    Thank you for the discussion. Really appreciate it and indeed of course we all care.

    The presence of Newport Coast and the toll road has had obviously an infinitely more pronounced impact on the habitat. That does not make unauthorized trails any better. It is unrelated and irrelevant, sorry

    What i am trying to do here is more if you hear buddies or friends speak about those trails, mention the possible consequences. First of all for habitat, but otherwise potentially for themselves (and other riders).

    Finally i am 100pc convinced too that there are some trails out there that can be legalized as they have done with Mentally Sensitive, Lizard and Carwreck. I am not a biologist but i am sure there are some candidates.
     
  24. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    La Verne, CA
    Name:
    Dennis (AKA Dio)
    Current Bike:
    2013 Trek Slash 9 (26er)
    Only in California...only here could a professional take wilderness and develop it for the benefit of mankind and make that good for the economy. Only in California could another professional take development and constrain it for the benefit of mankind, and all other kind as applicable to subject habitat, and make that good for the economy. It’s textbook competition and capitalism at play here.

    Regarding illegal trails, instead of not breeding more humans, how about all bike manufacturers revert back to 71-degree head angles and see how fun those trails become.

    Yea! Regulation baby! Where would we be without it?
     
  25. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J M
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    Yeah, but they all think they look super awesome all kitted up with matching bikes.

    “Hey Bro..:,hold on while I put my goggles on”. :laugh:
     
  26. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Lebec, California
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower/Yeti 5C
    I just want to take a moment to share how proud I am of everyone keeping this a discussion and not an argument, no shouting, no name calling, or personal jabs! Thank you thank you, thank you!
     
    scan, kioti, tbarnesarc and 6 others like this.
  27. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J M
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    I’m sorry.....I get that we need to protect the habitat...........


    But....::saying our 4-6’ Trail going through an area is more damaging than the 12 lane toll road is ridiculous. Same goes for all the McMansions in Shady Canyon. It’s just cherry picking to fit their agenda.
     
  28. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    I agree 100 percent, see above. However that is not the choice here...we cannot unbuild the toll road. So it is not relevant.
     
    Mikie likes this.
  29. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Crescenta Valley
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Snake"
    Current Bike:
    Vassago/Trek
    Alright everyone, Mikie has come and gone. I think the coast is clear.... get the guns out!
     
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  30. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Park didn’t want the toll road either. Nobody said the trail is more damaging than the toll road.
     
    Mikie likes this.
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