Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

Discussion in 'Trail Advocacy' started by herzalot, Sep 4, 2018.


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  1. Dirtrider....

    Dirtrider.... Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo, CA
    Name:
    Paul
    Current Bike:
    Ibis Ripley V4
    Operating a vehicle with 3 or 4 wheels is much different then balancing a vehicle with 2 wheels. Disabled or not. Then add in the mix dirt, sand or loose rocks versus smooth pavement with the occasional pothole.

    I am not advocating a blanket ban for any group.

    I just have a hard time getting it reconciled in my head with being medically diagnosed with a physical disability to the point of needing a handicap placard and riding a 2 wheeled vehicle on dirt trails with varying terrain.
     
  2. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Exactly... I think for the inexperienced we are imagining a wheelchair, or some obvious physical attribute.
    I know there was a feller on here who left due to previous eBike debates that I believe his screen name was wheezy? He had a restricted windpipe capacity which prevent solid lung intake. He rode eBikes due to his inability to take on enough oxygen, but had full physical capability to ride a bike. See, he would be a good candidate for access.
     
  3. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Agreed!
     
  4. Torrent77

    Torrent77 Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Dave
    They also give handicapped placards for motorcycles too. But, I agree with your point. I don't think e-mtb riders should be able to skirt the rules after the parks banned them.
     
    Rumpled, Faust29, mtnbikej and 2 others like this.
  5. Obsidian

    Obsidian iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Costa Mesa
    Name:
    Obsidian
    Current Bike:
    27.5 Intense Tracer
    His group is tiny right now, but he posted last night in a pretty large one and got lots of support. That's where he also posted instructions on how to get a placard and skirt the rules. Of course, that is also one of the main groups responsible for the 30 to 50 people group rides we have all encountered, so go figure.

    Yeah, he is definitely a butt hurt dude who knows the more people he can get on his side the better it is for him.
     
  6. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    "

    Thats what i thought too, it was even posted here somewhere recently. Cant seem to find it though
     
    Rumpled, Dirtrider...., kioti and 2 others like this.
  7. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    (Excerpt):

    LAGUNA COAST WILDERNESS PARK
    Park Rules

    • The park depends on visitors to protect all wildlife, vegetation, features, and improvements.
    • Use of motorized vehicles and equipment (including e-bikes and drones) is prohibited.
    • E-bikes are prohibited. This includes types 1-3 [OCCO 2-5-29(n)]: More information on e-bikes and mobility device policies.
    http://www.ocparks.com/parks/lagunac/rules
     
  8. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    And:

    From http://www.ocparks.com/

    August 17, 2018 Electric Bicycles Prohibited in Parks, Permitted on Some Regional Bikeways

    Orange County Codified Ordinances prohibit the use of motorized conveyances in County parks and recreation areas. This includes the use of all types of e-bikes and e-mountain bikes in regional and wilderness parks.

    A July 17, 2018 revision to OCCO 2-5-29(n) makes the following exception for some regional bikeways: “Class 1 and Class 2 electric bicycles, as defined by the California Vehicle Code, on those regional paved, off-road bikeways designated for such use by the Director of OC Parks.”

    Currently, this means that Class 1 and 2 electric bicycles are only permitted on the following County bikeways: Coyote Creek, Santa Ana River Trail, Bay View, San Diego Creek, Peters Canyon, Hicks Canyon, Aliso Creek, Salt Creek Trail and San Juan Creek bikeways.

    Visitors riding e-bikes in other County park facilities or trails are subject to citation.
     
  9. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    Not 100% relevant, but some interesting reading... Specifically the 3rd paragraph.

    From the Pacific Crest Trail association:

    Can I use a hiking cart on the Pacific Crest Trail? How about a wheelchair?
    Wheeled carts are not allowed on much of the trail. They are not prohibited on the SOT specifically but they are prohibited in designated wilderness areas and may be prohibited in the rest of the national park land that is not wilderness. Of the 2,650 miles of SOT, 54% of the trail that is on federal land is located in designated wilderness. A wheeled cart would not be permitted in those 48 federally designated wilderness areas, even for people with disabilities.

    In order to protect the primitive and undeveloped qualities of wilderness, motorized equipment, and mechanized transportation are not allowed within wilderness. PCTA does not make these rules, we’re just trying to answer your questions about the federal regulations on the matter.

    Although motorized and mechanized transport are generally prohibited in wilderness, wheelchair use in a wilderness area by an individual whose disability requires its use is permitted. The Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA Title V Section 508c, as amended in 2008) defines a wheelchair as “a device designed solely for use by a mobility impaired person for locomotion, that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.” “Designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person” means that the original design and manufacture of the device was only for the purpose of mobility by a person who has a limitation on their ability to walk. “Suitable for indoor pedestrian use” means the device would be suitable and allowed to be used inside a church, an office building, etc. A wheelchair or mobility device that meets both parts of this definition is allowed anywhere foot travel is allowed including in federally designated wilderness areas. A wheeled cart is not a wheelchair, not used for locomotion, not suitable for indoor use and it is not specifically designed for a person with a disability and therefore is not allowed in designated wilderness areas.

    Since specific regulations may vary by location, if you have more questions about this topic, we encourage you to contact the agency that manages the area that you’d like to travel in.
     
  10. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
  11. Obsidian

    Obsidian iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Costa Mesa
    Name:
    Obsidian
    Current Bike:
    27.5 Intense Tracer
    According to the eBike advocate guy, all of the things listed below qualify and get you access to OC Parks on an eBike:

    "Medical conditions that qualify are Visual acuity, cardiovascular disease, Lung disease, Parkinson's disease, arthritis of the ankle and foot, congestive heart failure, diabetes with peripheral vascular disease, trouble walking, back pain, weakness, diagnosed disease or disorder which substantially impairs or interferes with mobility."

    https://shoutout.wix.com/so/b6MNLh6f...dfaa01b8#/main
     
    Mikie, Faust29 and Dirtrider.... like this.
  12. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    Arthritis of the ankle.....sweet :thumbsup: That means I can ride an ebike.
    Back pain.....riding a mtn bike will help with that
    Weakness.....just what you need, to drag around a 50 lbs bike
     
  13. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower

    I'll give the guy credit.....he plays the victim pretty well.
     
  14. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    ADA Mobility Device Rules Effective March 15, 2011
    Introduction

    On September 15, 2010 the United States Department of Justice (DOJ) revised rules to the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) effective March 15, 2011. These rules allow a mobilty device defined by DOJ rules as a wheelchair to be permitted in any areas open to pedestrian use.

    Additionally the DOJ recognized “Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices” (OPDMD) to be used by “individuals with mobility disabilities.” The DOJ requires land owners and land managers to make reasonable modifications to public access policies and establish procedures to allow the use of OPDMD devices by individuals with mobility disabilities.

    We are committed to enabling the use and enjoyment of the County’s recreational assets managed by OC Parks. The changes to ADA law offer those who require mobility devices greater access to County recreation facilities, amenities and trails. We have completed an assesment of the trails and other assets of OC Parks and have determined which OPDMD devices are authorized for use in specific recreation areas. Information provided herein will describe which OPDMD devices can be used within OC Parks facilities.

    As technology advances and new devices are developed, public use patterns change, and impacts to natural and cultural resources are reevaluated. OC Parks may modify the type of OPDMD permissable within specific facilities on specific trails as necessary. Please check this site regularly for updates to these guidelines.

    DOJ Rules
    Wheelchair
    A wheelchair is a manually-operated or power-driven device designed primarily for use by an individual with a mobility disability for the main purpose of indoor or of both indoor and outdoor locomotion. This definition does not apply to Federal wilderness areas; wheelchairs in such areas are defined in section 508(c)(2) of the ADA, 42 U.S.C. 12207(c)(2).

    OPDMD Devices
    An OPDMD device is any mobility device powered by batteries, fuel, or other engines--whether or not designed primarily for use by individuals with mobility disabilities--that is used by individuals with mobility disabilities for the purpose of locomotion. This includes golf carts, electronic personal assistance mobility devices (EPAMDs), such as the Segway PT, or any mobility device designed to operate in areas without defined pedestrian routes, but that is not a wheelchair within the meaning of this section. This definition does not apply to Federal wilderness areas; wheelchairs in such areas are defined in section 508(c)(2) of the ADA, 42 U.S.C. 12207(c)(2).

    § 35.137 Mobility Devices

    (a) Use of wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids. A public entity shall permit individuals with mobility disabilities to use wheelchairs and manually-powered mobility aids, such as walkers, crutches, canes, braces, or other similar devices designed for use by individuals with mobility disabilities in any areas open to pedestrian use.

    (b)(1) Use of other power-driven mobility devices. A public entity shall make reasonable modifications in its policies, practices, or procedures to permit the use of other power-driven mobility devices by individuals with mobility disabilities, unless the public entity can demonstrate that the class of other power-driven mobility devices cannot be operated in accordance with legitimate safety requirements that the public entity has adopted pursuant to § 35.130(h).
    (2) Assessment factors. In determining whether a particular other power-driven mobility device can be allowed in a specific facility as a reasonable modification under paragraph (b)(1) of this section, a public entity shall consider--
    (i) The type, size, weight, dimensions, and speed of the device;
    (ii) The facility´s volume of pedestrian traffic (which may vary at different times of the day, week, month, or year);
    (iii) The facility´s design and operational characteristics (e.g., whether its service, program, or activity is conducted indoors, its square footage, the density and placement of stationary devices, and the availability of storage for the device, if requested by the user);
    (iv) Whether legitimate safety requirements can be established to permit the safe operation of the other power-driven mobility device in the specific facility; and
    (v) Whether the use of the other power-driven mobility device creates a substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment or natural or cultural resources, or poses a conflict with Federal land management laws and regulations.

    (c)(1) Inquiry about disability. A public entity shall not ask an individual using a wheelchair or other power-driven mobility device questions about the nature and extent of the individual´s disability.
    (2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public entity that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual’s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance´s requirements for disability placards or cards.

    Definitions
    Electric-powered mobility devices include:
    any mobility device powered by batteries, including multiple passenger carts (three or four wheels), electronic personal assistance mobility devices (EPAMDs - such as the Segway PT), battery-powered bikes (two or three wheels) and single passenger scooters (three or four wheels).

    Gas-powered mobility devices include:
    any mobility device powered by a gas-fueled engine using natural gas, gasoline, diesel, synthetic or bio fuel or combination thereof, including all-terrain vehicles, carts (three or four wheels), off-road bikes (two or three wheels), motor scooters (two or three wheels), motor cycles (two wheels), tractors and vehicles (four wheels).

    Tandem wheel device: A two, three or four-wheeled mobility device where the wheel alignment is parallel along one or more axles.

    Inline wheel device: A two-wheeled mobility device where the wheel direction of travel are aligned in the same plane.

    Assessments of permissible or non-permissible OPDMD
    Gas-powered mobility devices are not permitted in parks, beaches, historic sites and open spaces of the County of Orange.

    Justification: § 35.137 Mobility Devices Asessment Factors (iii, iv and v) Parks and open spaces possess significant natural and ecological conservation values that are to be managed to support a broad range of plant and animal populations. Federal land management laws and regulations (NCCP & HCP, Section 85.8.3 - #11), as well as conservation easements provisions (Conservation Easement, Schedule 5 - Inconsistent Uses within the Irvine Open Space Preserve) prohibit the use of motorized vehicles for recreational purposes on the land.

    The exclusion of gas-powered mobility devices, as compared to electric-powered mobility devices, is due to the substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment from the fire danger created by the heat of the gas-fired engine. In addition, engine noise of gas powered vehicles produces a significant zone of disturbance to the activities of native wildlife and can negatively impact the visitor experience. The Orange County General Plan envisioned the regional park system would provide relief from an increasingly urban envionment. “Noise does not preclude recreation activities but does diminish the enjoyment of the overall experience.” Furthermore, the noise from gas-powered mobility devices poses a health risk to adjacent recreationalist when it exceeds 70 dB. The World Health Organization has set 70 dB as a maximum safe noise level in the work place. Most gas-powered vehicles, such as ATVs and gas-driven motor bikes, exceed this noise level. Additionally, the byproducts of combustion created by small engines pose a significant air quality risk as proposed by the SCAQMD.

    Electric-powered OPDMD are permitted on trails and bikeways under specific trail type categories.

    Justification: § 35.137 Mobility Devices Assessment Factors (iii and iv) Trail users are required to stay within the authorized trail footprint to avoid serious harm to natural or cultural resources. Single track trails do not provide adequate space for safe passage of trail-users traveling in opposing directions to other power-driven devices.
     
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  15. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Trail Assessments & Limitations
    OC Parks Operations Staff conducted a comprehensive trail assessment based on DOJ guidelines. Trails can be categorized into four different types, with specific limitations and justifications as listed below.

    Paved Trails: Multi-use trail with shoulder.
    In-line & Tandem Devices not to exceed 36” inch maximum width.
    DOJ Assessment Factors
    Justification: § 35.137 Mobility Devices Assessment Factors (i, ii and iii) Characteristics of the device could affect other trail users, based on the volume of pedestrian traffic and operational characteristics of the trail. These trails are high capacity two-way traffic areas, where a width restriction allows for safe passing of OPDMD devices, bicycles and pedestrians.

    Multiuse Service Trail: Unpaved road.
    Typical examples of this type of trail are unimproved fire and ranch roads, typically greater than 8 feet in width.
    In-line & Tandem Devices not to exceed 36” inch maximum width.
    DOJ Assessment Factors
    Justification: § 35.137 Mobility Devices Assessment Factors (i and v) Characteristics of the device create a substantial risk of substantial harm to the environment or natural resources. These trails are typically wide enough for one-way vehicle traffic, and this width restriction allows for safe passing of OPDMD devices, bicycles and pedestrians on unpaved roads.

    Multiuse Single Track Trail: Unpaved, narrow gauge trail, suitable for multiple activities, including hiking, mountain biking or equestrian riding.
    In-line Devices not to exceed 26” inch maximum width and a maximum wheel width of 6”.
    DOJ Assessment Factors
    Justification: § 35.137 Mobility Devices Assessment Factors (i and v) Characteristics of the device create a substantial risk of substantial harm to the environment or natural resources. These are narrow trails where two-way traffic would require pedestrians to step off the trail and harm natural resources when allowing passage of OPDMD devices larger than 26” wide.

    Pedestrian Single Track Trail: Unpaved, narrow gauge trail suitable for hiking only.
    This type of trail is for natural areas and steep terrain where environmental or topographic constraints require no user impact to natural resources.
    No OPDMD devices are permitted on these trails.
    DOJ Assessment Factors
    Justification: § 35.137 Mobility Devices Assessment Factors (i, ii, iii, iv, v) Trail users are required to stay within the authorized trail footprint to avoid serious harm to natural or cultural resources.

    Other Notes
    • All OC Parks facilities have a posted speed limit of 10 mph.
    • All OPDMDs must stay on designated trails or bikeways at all times. Exceptions can be made when crossing turf areas to leave or rejoin a trail
    • No OPDMDs are permitted in historical structures, sensitive historic or cultural areas, museums or interpretive buildings (assessment factors (i)-(v) inclusive).
    • All users of two-wheel devices shall wear a helmet when operating those devices in compliance with California State Law.
    Additionally, the DOJ recognized “Other Power-Driven Mobility Devices” (OPDMD) to be used by “individuals with mobility disabilities.” The DOJ requires land owners and land managers to make reasonable modifications to public access policies and establish procedures to allow the use of OPDMD devices by individuals with mobility disabilities.

    Now im really confused. According to this, electric powered OPDMD devices are allowed on bicycle-legal singletrack as long as they are less than 26" wide and 6' long, and rider has a disabled placard. ?
     
    Old&InTheWay and Mikie like this.
  16. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    How the heck does an ebike help with visual acuity?
     
    Mikie and mtnbikej like this.
  17. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    If Ebikes are legal in OC parks, as long as you are legitimately disabled and have the placard, is just fine with me. The number of people who are disabled enough that pedaling is hard, but not so disabled that they are not coordinated enough to pilot a bicycle on rough terrain , is probaably pretty low. Looks like this guy is pushing ebikers to commit fraud and get bogus placards. And im sure the rangers know it.
     
  18. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Front Range, San Gabes
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    YT Izzo
    Agreed, it's not a disability, it's an inability.

    EDIT: I feel the need to elaborate on this because I too fall into the category of inability, specifically the inability to keep up with @mtnbikej! A condition that most of us suffer from, I fear. :laugh:
     
  19. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    "...a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability."

    Does Mr. Real Estate Agent use an assistive mobility device in his work? As a real estate broker, I imagine he moves around quite a bit.

    I need to stop reading this thread. I'm thinking of all the truly disabled kids I used to work with and it makes my blood boil that there are entitled asses abusing the system. All Ricky wanted in life was a permanent wheelchair ramp to get in and out of his house. He died before it was finished.
     
  20. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Makes my blood boil too that people are abusing the system. I have/had legitimately disabled family members.
     
    Mikie, Cyclotourist, DBMX119 and 3 others like this.
  21. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Troutman, NC
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    For what it's worth, when @Andy and I were slaving up Maple Springs today, we were passed by an e-biker. All good; e-bikes are allowed on Maple Springs. However when we got to Four Corners he was nowhere to be seen...
     
  22. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    is main divide north from 4 corners open?
     
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  23. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    You are free to ride from 4C to Beeks.
     
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  24. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    That was the 2011 program. I believe we saw an updated version that excluded bicycles as OPDMDs on OC Park trails, with a few paved bike path exceptions.
     
    Mikie and sir crashalot like this.
  25. BonsaiNut

    BonsaiNut iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Troutman, NC
    Name:
    Greg P
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightower CC XX1
    True... so I will think positively and that he was doing an up Maple Springs > Main Divide > Beeks out and back. :)
     
  26. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    ah, that clears it up for me. Sounds like ebikers think the new rules should not supersede the 2011 rules. However, what I posted was taken directly from oc parks site.
     
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  27. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    Maybe he went whole hog and went out to Sierra Peak and down Coal Canyon. :rolleyes:
     
    Mikie and Rumpled like this.
  28. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    Coal Canyon is not open to motorized vehicles. Bedford would be his only other option, besides an out and back of some sort.
     
  29. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    You really think he cared???? o_O
     
    Cyclotourist, mtnbikej, Mikie and 2 others like this.
  30. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    Nope.
     
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