Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

Discussion in 'Trail Advocacy' started by herzalot, Sep 4, 2018.



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  1. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    I'll bet all the ebikers turned around and went home to list their bikes - errr motorcycles - for sale! :thumbsup:
     
    HBkites, Obsidian, mtnbikej and 2 others like this.
  2. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    Those signs pretty much encapsulize why I feel no urge to ride there. But that's just me. :rolleyes::cool::p:facepalm::gag::Roflmao
     
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  3. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    Oh please. Yes - there are a lot of people on weekend mornings. No reason to ignore what might be a whole riding zone close to you that you might enjoy. But you might hate it too. So - you be you, mmmkay?
     
  4. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    Wait!!! Would an eye-roll emoji help? How can I make this more of a "tongue-in-cheek" moment?

    Sorry.:oops:
     
    Cyclotourist and herzalot like this.
  5. bvader

    bvader iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    HB
    Name:
    Mr. Brown
    Deserted today :)
     
  6. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Chameleon 60%
    Roadrunners > e-bikers

    Meep, meep!
     
  7. kdiff

    kdiff Member

    Location:
    Aliso Viejo
    Name:
    Kurtis
    Current Bike:
    Nomad4 & 26” 5010
    I'm not on the forum much, but given my previous push against those on here that are jaded with LCF, I thought it important that I say after my approximately 2-3(?) years of volunteering with them, I'm done. You guys were right, they're a waste of time. I'm still a believer in contributing to whatever community in whatever manner you can or works for you, but I no longer endorse contributing to LCF.
     
    mike, tick, herzalot and 6 others like this.
  8. Obsidian

    Obsidian Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Costa Mesa
    Name:
    Obsidian
    Current Bike:
    Kirkland Tracer
    What happened?
     
  9. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    I love Hallie, but I won't contribute to Laguna Canyon Foundation (LCF) anymore either. I will do trailwork if they will let me, but if their trailbuilders are doing what OC trailbuilders are doing, I won't be part of it. 5-Oaks is a disaster at the bottom. If that was LCF - they should be ashamed. Anti-humps - just like Cactus in Whiting, the top of Camarillo and the new trend in "slowing bikes."
     
    sir crashalot, Rumpled, mike and 5 others like this.
  10. Danimal

    Danimal iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    GG Trail Pistol!
    I do not know what LCF is, but I do know cactus in whiting is a disaster. Some of the humps/turns are destroyed and down right dangerous. Hikers hate them, and bikers have to go almost a crawl to end even get around them. Whoever built them, Bellfree contractors, should be ashamed. They, bellfree, has done good work in the past don't any longer.

    Hhmm...let me see about a doing a review online about them and the very poor trail work.
     
    Rumpled, Faust29, herzalot and 2 others like this.
  11. Dirtrider....

    Dirtrider.... Well-Known Member

    Location:
    RSM
    Name:
    Paul
    Current Bike:
    Ibis Ripley V4
    last time i rode Whiting i was thinking wtf happened to the trail with all these new humps and lady bumps. was very disappointed. u know they were built that way on purpose to slow bikers down.
     
    Rumpled, mtnbikej, Faust29 and 2 others like this.
  12. kdiff

    kdiff Member

    Location:
    Aliso Viejo
    Name:
    Kurtis
    Current Bike:
    Nomad4 & 26” 5010
    I'll post additional detail this weekend when I have a chance to write more than a sentence or two (I'm an extremely slow writer), hopefully it will be helpful.
     
    Rumpled, mtnbikej, Faust29 and 3 others like this.
  13. Obsidian

    Obsidian Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Costa Mesa
    Name:
    Obsidian
    Current Bike:
    Kirkland Tracer
    I like Cactus for the most part. I don't try to avoid any of the humps as I think they are fun. There is one blown out corner towards the end where I have trouble keeping my bike on the trail, so a proper berm right there would be nice. Other than that I don't have a problem with the work they did.

    Lizard is a mess at the last 1/3 of the initial downhill bit, but I don't mind it. Multiple lines to choose from when one encounters people walking their bikes or hiking. :whistling: According to a FB post I saw, they were supposed to do some trail work on it this week, but it apparently got delayed.
     
  14. kdiff

    kdiff Member

    Location:
    Aliso Viejo
    Name:
    Kurtis
    Current Bike:
    Nomad4 & 26” 5010
    A realization that they have no interest or desire to actually maintain the trails beyond being able to say they exist. My guess is their interest is in maintaining control over the Aliso/Laguna property and raising money.

    A small group of us has spent the last 2-3 years proving that we're responsible, reliable, capable, and have a desire to not only maintain the trails but improve them. During this time we were told that they, LCF, wanted more mtbrs like us involved. We asked for the ability to do more things as we proved ourselves, e.g. get in the park sooner after the rain so more significant & sustainable work could be done. Work that couldn't be done with dry soil. We were given a variety of responses such as they would look into it or OC Parks needed to give the "okay". In hindsight, while some of the answer's may have been technically true, there isn't a desire by LCF to do this work, even if done by volunteers. They made overtures that we would be involved to some extent in major trail projects (e.g. in addition to doing work, we would advise from a mtbr's point of view), however, there are examples like the work on 5 Oaks (e.g. retaining wall fiasco) where significant work was done and it wasn't good. They also continue to use contractors that have proven they don't know trail design. They shift a lot of blame to OC Parks, but that's the easy way out, if they're promoting themselves as the caretaker & raising money to take care of the land then shouldn't they be having these trail project conversations with OC Parks? Long story made short, none of this came to much fruition despite repeated requests to do work more significant than drain cleaning and some minor braking bump smoothing.

    When covid struck, work was heavily restricted while trail usage went beyond previous all time highs. The trails are beat, so as restrictions are being lifted, we've been eager to do some work. However, LCF being who they are, want to go out and clean drains because that makes a lot of sense (heavy sarcasm here) to do in April and on into summer. We've pushed them to do more significant work, you may have noticed the very bottom corner of Mentally was heavily redone about 8(?) weeks ago. That was because of us and requesting that they bring water. The other trail days have been a bust, because their default approach is to just clean drains regardless of the time of year & if it makes sense. As a result of this and the most recent trail day being especially pointless, one of the volunteers wrote up a rough draft of a trail maintenance plan & some other suggestions and asked LCF consider the suggestions. LCF's response was extremely defensive and the final straw for me. The communication made it clear that they have no interest in using the trail days as actual productive trail days. The piece below is a small portion of their response.

    "First and foremost, your role during these events is to support the LCF staff in conducting a successful event that is safe, meaningful for the participants and productive (in that order). It is important to remember that the primary goal of these events is to create and develop a sense of stewardship for the trails and the Parks in the participants while they learn and have a good time—the actual trail work that we get done is important, but it is not the focus. This has always been LCF’s perspective on these events, and it will continue to be. We need you to get behind this, and take our direction on how to accomplish it. Your suggestions and feedback are always welcome, but in the end, you need to follow our lead."

    From there the email basically went on to say how they are in-charge/control, i.e. dominant over us, and we're only there to do as they say. (@herzalot - Hallie confirmed that she “100% agreed with this email, as did the rest of the staff”.) Edit addition --> Their response didn't address most of the suggestions proposed by the volunteer. The irony of them saying that feedback is welcome but it's obviously not.

    So I'm all for getting people engaged in nature, but they've ignored that some of the events, especially recent ones, have been limited to long-term volunteers. We're not volunteering to get each other engaged and while not opposed to that, our main objective is to get Sh!t done. We've made that clear. All they would have to do is have a trail day for the general public and allow some sort of trail time for serious volunteers but they don't have an interest in that.

    I've got a lot more to say on this, but I think at this point it's TLDR.

    Edit: I do think some of the LCF staff are good people and do care, though there are some fundamental flaws with the organization. For whatever reason there's not a desire to change. A common thing I see these days is an unwillingness to admit making mistakes. I don't get this, but I think LCF is taking this approach.
     
  15. kdiff

    kdiff Member

    Location:
    Aliso Viejo
    Name:
    Kurtis
    Current Bike:
    Nomad4 & 26” 5010
    I don't understand this. My interaction with her has been limited, but I'm not impressed from a trail advocacy/maintenance perspective. She's probably excellent at hobnobbing for fundraising.
     
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  16. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    I met with her on a number of occasions and she was eager to include mt. bikers in all decision making, though not a mt. biker herself. She held forums for mt. bikers specifically, and was very responsive to me personally. However, time has passed, and it appears the pressure from non riders is continuing to build. I will say that the one-way, bike only downhill trails were a surprise. Not sure if LCF had anything to do with that or if that was strictly OC Parks.
     
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  17. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower

    If it were only LCWP that they did this at, then I'd say it could be. Since they did it at several parks, doubt it was because of LCF.
     
    Faust29, herzalot and Obsidian like this.
  18. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    That is such a shame to hear. Especially the suggestion to work after rain makes a ton of sense. They should listen to feedback from MTB riders. I recently donated for trail work tools and donate every month on top of that. I guess the suggestions may then have to go straight to OC Parks themselves.
    Has anyone btw participated in trailwork done by IRC? I have not, but if it is better, then i’d do perhaps that. Then we can also suggest to make that monthly open access day weekly! That will relieve some of the crowds Saturday morning...
     
  19. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    What kind of dressing do they want on that word salad?
    Why on earth would the focus of a trail-work day not be trailwork?
    Those folks are out of their minds.
     
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  20. evdog

    evdog iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    San diego
    Name:
    Evan S
    WTF does the bolded even mean? Wouldn't a trail day be more meaningful if they learned how to do proper trail work and got some significant work accomplished? I'm not sure how you get around trailwork being hard work, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun. Unless you're lazy. I don't think people would show up to trail days if they weren't having fun. Productivity is not mutually exclusive from fun and meaningful. Groups like SDMBA, CORBA, MWBA, and others get a lot of repeat volunteers, and have many long-term volunteers. I can see the LCF stance if they were talking about bringing school kids out to do trail days, but there are probably better ways to develop a sense of stewardship in that age range. There's no reason why there couldn't be separate trail days for those who want to get sh*t done and those who LCF is targeting. The real message is what kdiff said, they don't care and it's their way or the highway.

    On that note, 1) how does one get on the LCF board to help direct the entity. And 2) has anyone raised concerns directly with OC Parks? I bet they would like to know if LCF is not being effective in its mission by not doing effective trailwork and driving away interested and qualified volunteers. Present photos and documentation of why the work they're doing is not effective and you might get some traction. Or you might get brushed off again.
     
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  21. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    I have considered trying to get on their board, but I honestly don't think I can support most of their mission, therefore I am not sure I could get elected/selected to serve. That and I have 0 qualifications in areas that matter to them.
     
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  22. evdog

    evdog iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    San diego
    Name:
    Evan S
    Well you could provide an endless pool of childhood trailwork labor talent through partnership with your school, ripe to be indoctrinated in trail and park stewardship. Sounds like they could be into that.
     
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  23. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    Yeah, but my school is a lot closer to the FLoop than to Laguna, so there's that. Maybe I could get @Runs with Scissors and @doublewide to mentor our HS students.





    Wait - I just re-read what I posted. :eek: :stop:
     
  24. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    We'll have them up to snuff in no time flat. :thumbsup:
     
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  25. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    "we will determine if the event was succesful, based on whether it was a success or not. we need you to get behind focusing it on being a meaningful success; any decent trailwork or education about trailwork that happens to get done during the trailwork event is merely incidental. Your feedback will be heard by ears. Arent you glad you missed work for this?
     
    Faust29, kdiff, Cyclotourist and 4 others like this.
  26. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    HT, FS
    Thanks for taking the time to put down the straight scoop @kdiff et al.

    I don't have anything meaningful to add. It suks seeing honest recreationalists get squeezed by management policies. Being an avid MTBer in OC has come to be a tough gig. I've spent less time there as time goes on, and, after many positive years of riding, it's disconcerting to feel like being somewhere else is a good thing. But, with the fire closures, trail issues, overuse and lack of enforcement, that's what it's becoming.

    Any of you downtrodden want to ride N. Tahoe trails, I'm good for docent work. Not a fix but a pacifier can't hurt.
     
    tick, senderos_949, Faust29 and 7 others like this.
  27. bvader

    bvader iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    HB
    Name:
    Mr. Brown
    Lizard Work Incoming... See what happens.

    26-29th

    PXL_20210717_230605731.jpg
     
  28. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail
    They must have scheduled some rain those days. :confused: :stop:
     
  29. TwoWheel Eric

    TwoWheel Eric Member

    Location:
    Orange County
    Name:
    Eric
    Current Bike:
    Ibis Ripley V4
    Agree that trail is ruined. I assume goal was to make it safer...end result is more dangerous for both bikes and hikers.
     
  30. mtbMike

    mtbMike iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Oceanside
    Name:
    Mike
    Current Bike:
    Ibis HD5 & Ibis Ripley
    WOW....this is exactly the mentality that the City of Carlsbad presents when anybody wants to improve the trails at Calavera though they never put anything in writing like this. I know I'd probably be doing more harm than good but IF I was involved in the process, I'll tell Hallie or whoever to "F___ OFF" and then go start doing stuff w/o asking for permission. Even though I'm not involved at Calavera, that's exactly what goes on. Yeah, every 18 months they may come back and tear down everything that's been built and/or go on an enforcement blitz for two weeks but that's how the process seems to work.
     
    Old&InTheWay, kdiff and Cyclotourist like this.
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