Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

Discussion in 'Trail Advocacy' started by herzalot, Sep 4, 2018.

  1. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    Well, it's happening. Inside sources reveal that rangers are considering closing Aliso and LCWP to mt. bikes if they can't find a way to curb the use of off-menu trails and "dangerous" riding.

    If this progresses into action, we may need organized, collective action. And/or I may need to move.

    Thank you STRAVA, YouTube, E-bikes and careless, clueless, ego-driven riders! :bang:
     
  2. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    I think a similar idea is to close it to hikers, same result but keeps the economic benefits of Mtb's.
     
  3. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    That is not being considered. The Resource Management Plan calls for protection of the habitat through limited trails and trail usage.

    This ain't no joke.
     
  4. mountaingirl sara

    mountaingirl sara Well-Known Member

    Location:
    So Cal
    Name:
    Sara Ford
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz 5010
    Crrrrap! Sorry you guys, that’s harsh! We had a few very local trails closed by a conservation group...it was not well received. They’ve set up a few cameras and have even a approached a few of us mtn bikers (not sure what they could actually do). Anyways, hopefully reason wins this battle for you!
     
  5. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    The truth is this completely sucks.

    I see that OC is building more and more homes while simultaneously reducing the areas for outside activities. More people, fewer trails and recreation opportunities.
    I see it near my house. I bought here because the area was marked as permanent open space ( not protected space) and they not only closed the trails but destroyed them so no one can use them. All while building hundreds of new homes on half the open space land. So congestion and some conflict is expected. What happens? people will continue to hike and ride the areas. Humans are not meant to be locked inside staring at a screen. It's nor mentally or physically healthy.

    The answer is to open more areas to recreation, not fewer. I think that the ship has sailed in protecting areas completely. We will be another LA or NYC before you know it.

    So rant aside, what can we as a demographic do?
     
  6. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS
    Seems as though OC Parks is going to war. It has been the wild wild west for about a decade. We are our own worst enemy. What we have proven is that we cannot govern ourselves.
     
  7. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    The OG has been replaced by the NG, and they don't give a Sh!t. Tommy and his kind will care when it's closed. Then they will likely be petulant and whiny about their "rights" to the trails.


    (PS - By "his kind," I mean aggressive riders who don't care to learn which trails are off menu and who delight in posting videos, directions, trail names and engraved invitations to come ride them. I am not referring to any physical or cultural traits. Arrogance and self-absorption knows no bounds.)
     
  8. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    well..,, crap. I cant afford to drive hours to faraway areas every time i want to ride, if they close my backyard trails. Combined with the extensive closure in CNF. And cant move unless we abandon my wifes elderly parents and aunt.
    F########################################k!
    wonder how much i can get for my new Rune.
     
  9. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS
    That is because they are not looking at the big picture.....they are only looking at themselves.
     
  10. tick

    tick Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    Or they could try The one thing that’s never been tried-actual persistent enforcement.

    None of the infractions would be hard to stop. Ebikers are obvious, and every poachy trail has an exit. Throw down a few $150 fines and the word will get around.

    But for enforcement to be the solution, it would mean that the bureaucracy is at fault for 30 years of looking the other way. So that can’t be the answer.

    In the end though, we will probably lose out to the hordes of walkers anyway. Misbehavior just gives the county a convenient pretext.

    The riders driven from Aliso would cause a cascade of congestion all over the county, and could precipitate the end of the sport in OC.

    The only real good answer is more trail miles in various places. The best case scenario is that a move by the Aliso ranger could get the rest of OC Parks on board with alleviating the crowds.
     
    HBkites, Faust29, littlewave and 6 others like this.
  11. tick

    tick Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    It’s sobering to recall that the only thing that kept Oaks from going dark to us was a generous/ wealthy donor.

    What worries me is that the dollar signs on the coast probably flow the other way—how much would some billionaire give the State Parks to “fix” the congestion on Ridge Park or TOTW?
     
  12. SingleTrackJB

    SingleTrackJB Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    SingleTrackRider
    That would be so sad.

    This is what i had feared and my reason for keep brushing up every exit/entry point of most off menu trails in el Moro, to the extent possible, every now and then, only to see it removed pretty soon thereafter....

    There are TONS of trails plus they have opened a few trails since i arrived in 2011. turtle ridge, lizards, etc

    I would love to attend a meeting where

    I would :

    A) suggest much stricter enforcement. Indeed a 300-400 dollar fine works. Proof: why does nobody poach those Bommer Canyon IRC limited access trails? People know that area gets watched. Btw — those hills there look nice. No 5+ trails going straight down. It is pretty.

    B) open up a select few of illegal trails. Heads together, lets think, which ones are not so much hurting the habitat. That Cow Trail will be a good contender. Put it on the map...

    C) better signage. Or ANY signage. E.g I have mentioned multiple times to rangers that there is no sign on top of Old Emerals Falls. How would a relative newcomer know that that trail is allowed. Same goes for Bong Drop, but then showing it is closed. People often just dont know any better. Ranger’s possible argument that signs get taken away is bogus. The one at one of the starts of Marie Callender has been there for 5+ years. Ok it is bent but it is there..

    Thanks for letting us know!
     
  13. tick

    tick Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    Not sure they will care. Poachers gonna poach.

    Unless they are made to care.
     
  14. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Do they have the funds to hire the manpower for that kind of enforcement? well, maybe they could with stiffer fines, haha..

    Ive always thought they should open up a few more. And they have opened a few, slowly over the last decade-stagecoach, car wreck, mentally sensitive. However, I dont think that in itself will decrease traffic on the other illegals.

    Not so bogus-Ive seen many "trail closed" signs vandalized or torn down. Heck, evem a fire watch camera installed at the top of tna was vandalized, if i remember correctly. However, I do agree they need to be more clear, and sign Old Emerald Falls, that always baffled me.

    D. (my wife came up with this one). The park can seriously F up the trail beds on illegal trails-dig giant holes, pile big rocks, string barb wire through, etc. Obviously piles of brush at the entrances arent enough of a deterrent.
     
  15. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Crescenta Valley
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Snake"
    Current Bike:
    Salsa/Trek/Kona
    This is the time for the OC bike clubs/organizations to approach the rangers in an effort to take part in ending the actions of the offenders.

    Things that can be done by them:
    *foot patrols who can spread the word
    *new, inexpensive signage posted around the area
    *labor crews who can remove the illegal trails
    *invite the local news media to do a report on the matter

    IMO, not only should the fines be steep, the offenders should also lose their bikes permanently on the spot.
     
  16. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    It's not really the "poaching" that brought this to a head. It's the arrogance and ignorance that brought such huge volume to these trails to the point where the NG think the trails are actually on the menu. In the past three years, trails you could barely see have become 10-15 ft. wide. For example - the one next to 5-Oaks, the one next to T and A and the "alternative" to Old Emerald. Also, the Hawaiian trail that drops into the canyon across from the Athletic Club, and the one that connects with Dripping Cave in Aliso... All are plainly visible from anywhere and are beckoning riders to partake.

    So yes, now it will come down to either enforcement or closing to all bikes. If it's closed to all bikes, it will be much easier to enforce - anyone who starts pedaling from any of the entry points gets stopped. Anyone who exits any trail gets stopped - ticketed and perhaps bike confiscated.

    I hope we still have time to develop and implement a strategy to keep our access.

    (NG = New Guard)
     
  17. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    '15 Intense Tracer 275c DVOish
    I think the 4th Amendment to the Constitution may be something to consider before confiscating a person's property.

    We will need to self regulate in order to have a chance, but I am not confident that can be done. Perhaps a temporary closure will get the attention of the arrogant asshats who have created the problem, then an educational campaign to bring them up to speed on how they (and we - the good guys) can re-gain access at some point in the future. The industry will be rocked if the trails close - and it will be in their best interest to find a solution as well.
     
    Old&InTheWay, Stkx66, Faust29 and 5 others like this.
  18. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Crescenta Valley
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Snake"
    Current Bike:
    Salsa/Trek/Kona
    Steep fines and permanent loss of bike can ends this.
     
  19. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    one thing im thinking about doing, and maybe others can. Pick a (weekend, when it matters) day, pick an illegal trail, hang out for a few hours at the entrance and say youre an official park volunteer and educate people about to drop in. Perhaps even let the park know beforehand, im sure theyd be on board. . Will be hard to find time for me to do this, but well see. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
     
    herzalot, HBkites, Faust29 and 4 others like this.
  20. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS

    The problem with that is the same as with us telling Ebikes that they are banned in the parks....the response is usually “I know, I don’t care” or “mind your own business”.

    Talking with the rangers at Oaks the other day, they were hoping that those breaking the rules that were told that by their peer groups would set in better than from the authorities. It’s not.
     
  21. Ebruner

    Ebruner Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Erik Bruner
    Current Bike:
    SC Hightower, Kona Hei Hei
    this news freaks me out.

    It seems like we could raise enough money to have a significant impact and a seat at the table if that's what it takes. Does anyone know the particulars of the arrangement and donations at oaks?
     
  22. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS

    He was a local business owner who lives a few houses from the park, he also is a rider/runner/hiker. He was very present and very vocal at all the meetings.
     
  23. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    When was new to riding, id see a trail and follow it. Sometimes it'd come out in someone's backyard, just Peter out end up good knows where.

    My point is, I know Aliso somewhat well but if there is a trail head I'd assume it's good to go. I don't know what's legal or not. It's pretty safe to assume some of the riders have no idea the trails are off limits.

    So, let's go to the trails they closed by my home. They covered the entrance with bushes and posted no trespassing signs. Then tore up 100% of the trail with a ditch witch or such, on top of that 100% covered with branches, cactus and anything else there could cut or find.

    No way anyone could ride these trails now without a few days of clearing and even more to pack down the soil.
    If they are serious about keeping people off then this is probably what's needed.
    And really, better to lose some than all.
     
  24. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS

    OC Parks will tell you, if there is not an Official Parks Trail Sign at the top/bottom of a trail....it is not a sanctioned trail.
     
  25. Danimal

    Danimal Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo
    Name:
    Dan
    Current Bike:
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    Interesting. I'd never know that.

    Will have to look closely as I don't remember any signs at whiting and very few at Aliso. But then it's very possible I just don't pay attention .
     
  26. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    La Verne, CA
    Name:
    Dennis (AKA Dio)
    Current Bike:
    2013 Trek Slash 9 (26er)
    Sanction a race, a try-out of sorts, and only the top 10% (round trip) get to ride MTB. The losers have to submit their bikes to the County and get lost.

    @herzalot, do you have a copy of the Wilderness Management Plan? A local consulting firm [LSA] may have prepared it.
     
  27. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS

    You know your way around, so they don’t catch your attention.

    Whiting has them. I’m sure Aliso has them.
     
  28. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot Well-Known Member

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Ummm....no.
     
  29. LLPoolJ

    LLPoolJ Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    Name:
    James Johnson
    Current Bike:
    Specy Epic and Stumpy
    Survival of the Fittest!
     
  30. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Addict

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 29er
    As long as I can handlebar-mount a .50 and put buzz-saw mounts on my hubs. :cool:

    Okay then.:thumbsup: