"E mtn bikes r us" (rock n road) boycott?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by StrandLeper, May 28, 2016.


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  1. wheezy

    wheezy Member

    Location:
    Turtle Rock
    Name:
    Todd McTallguy
    Current Bike:
    2020 NORCO Range VLT C1
    I have yet to spot a "no electric bicycles" sign and 90% of my riding is in Irvine. I am curious where this sign is.
     
  2. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    (Here are my thoughts and if I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.)

    I don't think the writer's of the current law fully understood the implications. It's one thing to support a device that gets people out their of cars and commuting to work and running errands on devices that reduces air pollution. But it's a different situation when the Ebike industry takes that heartfelt support from legislators (trying to reduce greenhouse gases), and then forces its way into environmentally protected areas that were created for non-motorized recreation and to preserve nature.

    Because "bicycles" have historically been defined as human-powered, I think Park regulations were open to including them. But batteries don't grow on trees, factories create pollution, old batteries need to be disposed of, and bicycle riders have been doing just fine without them for over a hundred years. Since including Ebike riders as legal park users actually creates more (offsite) pollution, I'm guessing the law will be tweaked to be more specific. After all, it's environmentalists who pushed for Ebikes (for commuting), and its environmentalists who set aside certain areas for preservation and non-motorized use.

    Either way it plays out, E-bikes or E-wheelchairs can and should be allowed for use by people with disabilities on trails that would otherwise exclude them.
     
  3. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Ed
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO
  4. fos'l

    fos'l Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Bob
    Current Bike:
    2005 Santa Cruz Superlight
    The San Diego Creek Trail at Alton behind the police station according to my friend (I haven't seen it, but she has pretty good eyesight); admittedly not the best representation of a "trail", but maybe a harbinger. Not trying to discredit your statement, just point out that someone is printing those signs.
     
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  5. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    Thank you Wheezy for taking the time and reading the law and better yet understanding it. Much he anti sentiment comes from feelings not understanding the law.

    Well said my friend.

    Dean
     
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  6. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    Plug in? :laugh:
     
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  7. wheezy

    wheezy Member

    Location:
    Turtle Rock
    Name:
    Todd McTallguy
    Current Bike:
    2020 NORCO Range VLT C1
    Interesting talking point. Lithium batteries are pretty bad, for sure. That said, carbon fiber from China is one of the "dirtiest" products on the planet if ya didn't know. It has toxic byproducts, lots of wasted materials, is nearly impossible to "recycle" and it doesn't biodegrade. The stuff is just nasty. The bicycle industry as a whole is far from being environmentally friendly if that was a consideration in trail access.
     
    Oaken, ridinrox, Mikie and 2 others like this.
  8. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley

    Thanks for your thoughtful discussion, Wheezy. I think you're an inspiration and look forward to meeting and riding with you one of these days.

    I agree that many oversees manufacturing processes could be cleaned up. I've also read that cargo ship emissions are one of So Cal's biggest polluters. All kinds of problems out there, which make our wilderness parks that much more precious.

    Since this thread's still going, here's something I wrote in a private message but was encouraged to share (based on my personal experience on trails, preserves and parks in Orange County, local mountains and the Sierra Nevada).

    "I see trail use restrictions as a progression:

    Nature preserves such as Audubon--no human recreation allowed.

    Wilderness-- human and horse "power" only; no machines (although mechanical advantage with ski bindings allowed).

    Non-motorized-- human and horse power; machines (bikes) allowed. But operative factor-- natural power. And not compatible (to @herzalot's point) because of horse unpredictability and bike speed, but still allowed (with right-of-way and speed limit guidelines).

    Motorized trails--OHV + all of the above in many cases. Even less compatible.

    Motorized (graded) dirt roads like Trabuco Wash--even more incompatible to the point where hiking and horseback riding are not generally enjoyable, and cycling is marginal due to dangerous driving activity on busy days.

    From my perspective, the point isn't safety and compatibility, it's simple to complex. Foot, horseback and snowshoe/ski ='s simple, or basic. Adding human-powered bikes introduces machinery and obvious mechanical advantage. Adding motors is another step. If you start with the basic trail use theory of wilderness and then gradually allow more technology, you'll follow my logic concerning area guidelines and restrictions."
     
  9. UPSed

    UPSed iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Simi Valley
    Name:
    Ed
    Current Bike:
    Niner Jet 9 RDO
    It was the first cute one I saw.... And I like cute things..... Like the ebikes.
     
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  10. Louis Zegarra

    Louis Zegarra Member

    Location:
    Eastvale
    Name:
    LouisZ
    Current Bike:
    Giant Stance
    I wonder if it was a homemade sign done by a disgrunted rider.
     
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  11. ridinrox

    ridinrox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Fullerton
    Name:
    Roxanne
    Current Bike:
    '16 Giant Trance Advance
    When we all start living like the Amish then I won't have a problem switching sides. :p

    Luv ya Jim!! When we gonna go ride??
     
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  12. LLPoolJ

    LLPoolJ iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    Moreno Valley
    Name:
    James Johnson
    Current Bike:
    Specy Epic, Stumpu and Enduro
    Sorry spoke to soon. Delete me
     
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  13. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    NEVAHHH! I like you too much! Ha ha!
     
  14. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    Having grown up near a large Amish community, I can say for certain that they may not own modern conveniences, but they certainly won't turn down a free ride in a car if it's going in their direction! :laugh:
     
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  15. Cornholio

    Cornholio iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    B
    Current Bike:
    Huffy
    So are we gonna see commercials for Amish made e-bikes soon? Kinda like the newspaper ads for the electric Amish fireplaces? :laugh:
     
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  16. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    A-bikes!

    hey we got a whole alphabet to go through
     
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  17. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    dandy-horse_smT.png
    I'd really like to see someone bring back the dandy horse... in carbon.
     
  18. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    The original Singlespeed.
     
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  19. Daddy Dirtbag

    Daddy Dirtbag Member

    Location:
    Castaic
    Name:
    Jeff Johansen
    Current Bike:
    2016 Trek Stache 9 29+
    With all due respect, I don't really subscribe to such 'logic'. IMHO, riding a horse provides an obvious mechanical advantage, just that it is an organically grown mechanical advantage. I can't even really call a horse simple if you break it down into all of it's parts.

    Those that ride horses in the wilderness are not doing it for the benefit of the horse, nor are there restrictions on bringing 'technology' (such as electronic devices like a Kindle or a 2-way radio) into wilderness areas.

    I would simply ask that e-bikes (or any bike that has a motor of any kind) be placed in it's own separate category, and not be lumped in with purely human powered bicycles . . . . EVER . . . . . whenever it comes to writing any legislation regarding access to trails. This way, each can be included, excluded, added or removed from being allowed (wherever such things are either allowed or disallowed) on a case by case basis, based on each of their own individual merits (good, bad, or otherwise).
     
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  20. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    Unfortunately, the way the federal law is written, and most state laws, e-bikes (sub 750W pedalic) default into the same group as regular bikes. As stated from previous posts, it would just be easier to specifically name e-bikes as a prohibited vehicle when crafting any access rules for any wilderness area. Supposedly Moab has done it, but it doesn't seem to stop folks from riding e-bikes out there.

    I've stated in many of my posts in the past across various forums: The people who'd really benefit from e-mtb in the US won't buy them, and the people who actually do buy them will likely not be able to peel themselves off the couch to ride them.

    Now... when they make this an e-bike:
    couchrental.jpg
    ...then we have a real problem.
     
  21. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    Good points, Jeff. I didn't write the rules, I'm just trying to put trail designations in some kind of context so we can see how motorized bicycles fit in.

    Like you say, riding on horseback is benefitting from the mechanical advantage supplied by the use of a natural organism, and has been used as a basic form of transportation by humans for millennia. Horses are the original, natural version of an e-bike, moto, or truck.

    Bicycles are in a sense a man-made substitute, and mine can certainly be as stubborn as an ass and as crazed as a bucking bronc.

    Limits on technology in designated wilderness seem to be focused on mode of travel, primarily "foot." In my experience, much is gained by leaving as much technology behind as possible, or at least having areas where limits are in place. Just as there are benefits and disadvantages in each of the current trail use types, like non-motorized. Rules are fluid and often frustrating. Arriving at the top of Mt. Whitney and finding everyone on their phones is probably not what the original writers of the wilderness act had in mind, but that's the current situation.

    I agree that e-bikes should be placed in their own category and not lumped together with human-powered bikes when talking about trail use. Legislation will catch up, but then have to be updated again when Louis starts riding his hovercraft down Car Wreck. :whistling:
     
  22. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    Chicken Nugget
    Current Bike:
    2018 Guerrilla Gravity SMASH
    When I was immobile from knee surgery, the best part of my day besides when the OxyContin kicked in was when I got to go to Costco or Target or Hobby Lobby and use the E-motorized shopping carts. It was an opportunity to get out of the house and be mobile, so I understand the value of E-bikes for old or injured or fat people. With that said, E-bikes can have the fire roads, settings which are commensurate with the abilities of their users. If an E-bike is found on a single track, the E-bike should be confiscated and donated to inner city jurisdictions.
     
  23. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Thats one of the reasons i dont do carbon. Aluminum isnt too environmentally friendly either but its the lesser of two evils. Also cant justify the price.
     
  24. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    I wasn't sure about legal E-bike use in the National Forest so I checked with the Trabuco Ranger District. According to my source, the federal government (at least the USFS) currently considers E-bikes to be motorized vehicles and only allows their use on motorized roads. For the Trabuco, that'd be the North Main Divide and other roads such as Maple Springs (currently closed), when allowed.

    That viewpoint could obviously change, but so far it's been consistent with local agencies I've asked concerning Orange County based trails (County, State and Federal). I'm simply sharing what I've been told and there may be other opinions out there. I'd suggest contacting the local Ranger or agency if in doubt about an area's rules, and sharing that information on this site. One place to check with is El Moro (CCSP), because I didn't speak with them directly and would like to know their position.

    I'm also curious whether local bike shops selling mountain E-bikes have a different understanding of legal E-bike trail access, and have heard differing opinions by local Rangers.

    In contrast with the thread title, I'm not in favor of boycotting Rock 'n Road, and I'm not an E-bike lover or hater. My love is for the outdoors and the trails we ride, and the best way to find balance that protects both while allowing as much recreation and enjoyment as possible. That balance gets more difficult as our population grows and development shuts down open space. I'm saddened by the lack of local roads and trails for motorcycle and 4WD users, and scarcity of new trails for hiking, mountain biking and equestrian use, as well as additional usage from a potential new user group aka E-bikers.

    So for now, as far as E-bikes are concerned, I hope to be informed on the issue, discuss the perceived pros and cons, and look for solutions that will benefit all of us lover's of trails and dirt roads.
     
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  25. sir crashalot

    sir crashalot iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    laguna beach
    Name:
    gary fishman
    Current Bike:
    2018 banshee rune
    Jim, well written.
     
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  26. ScottV

    ScottV Member

    Location:
    Rancho Santa Margarita
    Name:
    Scott VanDell
    Current Bike:
    Santa Cruz Hightowwer
    I rode through Whiting around 7:30 AM Sunday. I saw a group of six guys with these bikes https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/mountain/turbolevofsrcomp6fattie/113963

    At first I didnt realize it was that e-bike until I saw the big battery on the downtube. They look like regular AM bikes at first glance. I asked about the bikes at first thinking they were just a bunch of 27 plus bikes. I asked how do you like the larger tires. His response was that the bike climbs easier than anything he ever rode. I was confused by that comment but as I rode away I realized they were e-bikes!
     
  27. ridinrox

    ridinrox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Fullerton
    Name:
    Roxanne
    Current Bike:
    '16 Giant Trance Advance
    I concur. :thumbsup:
     
  28. You gotta be kidding?????
     
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  29. Hard to blame a retail store for trying to make money by selling ebikes. Just let the rich guys buy them and get tickets for riding trails.
     
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  30. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    I would think it is safe to say that Specialized does NOT care about whether their Motorized Vehicle is used on non motorized trails...
    (Based on their description below)

    The Turbo Levo FSR Comp 6Fattie has the perfect blend of trail performance, proper handling, technology, and durability. This means that you get a roomy top tube for an easy fit, ultra-short chainstays for nimble handling, and a low bottom bracket that makes the bike feel glued to the trail. Then comes the efficient and powerful Turbo technology, mating the battery and motor into the M5 frame in a new way. The exclusive, custom-tuned motor smoothly and quietly puts out up to 530 watts of additional power to the pedals to make climbing nearly effortless, and the output is fully adjustable to conserve energy. At the battery, you'll find that it's fully integrated with the down tube and easily removable for quick charging or swaps. It has a lengthy lifespan for hitting long, out of the way trails and, along with the motor, is strategically placed for optimal weight distribution on the frame. This version also has a durable build kit, with a 140mm RockShox Yari RC up front, SRAM Guide R brakes, and a SRAM one-by groupset controlling shift and drivetrain duties. It also features our revolutionary new 6Fattie wheel system that decreases deflection and dramatically increases traction, floatation, and fun over the trail. Add to this our powerful Mission Control App for full control of the Turbo technology and an integrated Trail Display with all of the ride metrics you need, and you're looking at the future of trail bikes.
    2016-specialized-turbo-levo-fsr-comp-6fattie-electric-full-suspension-mountain-bike.jpg
     
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