A Few Bad Apples...::

Discussion in 'Trail Advocacy' started by mtnbikej, Jan 17, 2020.


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  1. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
  2. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    This is what is going to happen to the OC Parks...
    Wilderness riding is much less obvious for the lawbreakers. But inconsiderate mountain bikers and motorized bikes on non motorized trails in high congested areas will break the back of what we have taken years to build.
    Very sad.
     
    Danmtchl, tick, Fueledbyex8 and 11 others like this.
  3. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    HT, FS
    Danmtchl, tick, Fueledbyex8 and 14 others like this.
  4. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    That was a good read... And it mentioned an area much closer to home. It was a few years ago, but the ban still stands.

    From "Los Altos online":

    BYRNE PRESERVE BIKE BAN FINAL
    A proposed Byrne Preserve bicycle ban that generated considerable debate at the Jan. 27 council meeting failed to garner any public response Thursday, and councilmembers adopted the ordinance as part of the night’s consent calendar.

    The proposal emerged after local horseback riding enthusiasts and hikers expressed safety concerns related to cyclists speeding through the preserve. Westwind Community Barn members were especially worried about cyclists frightening horses and potentially throwing young and inexperienced riders.

    Councilmembers have said cycling speed records posted to mobile app Strava alarmed them and influenced their decision to support the ordinance.
     
  5. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    The whole thing is so frustrating to me. As an ultra runner, equestrian, AND a mountain biker. All three groups are at each others throats, none care to see the other perspective, and none want to share.

    Obviously a gross exaggeration. I have met those in all three groups who don't mind each other. But the loudest ones are the trouble makers, and ALL three groups have them!
     
    UPSed, Danmtchl, Faust29 and 8 others like this.
  6. littlewave

    littlewave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    Brett
    Current Bike:
    GG Smash (Alu)
    @Mikie I'm not sure what this has to do with OC Parks that warrants specifically calling it out? For that matter, I'm also not sure what it has to do with motorized vehicles. This article is about users (in this case mountain bikers) acting rudely to other users (specifically horseback riders who also happen to be landowners), not breaking the law by riding ebikes, so maybe you can follow your own advice and keep the ebike talk out of this particular debate?
    Inter-group conflict exists anywhere (everywhere?) where multi-use trails are close to population centers (hello front side San Gabes, Santa Barbara, San Diego, just to name some other locales that are not OC Parks that are faced with the same issues of inter-group conflict).
     
  7. fos'l

    fos'l Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Bob
    Current Bike:
    2005 Santa Cruz Superlight
    Agree; keep your head in the sand and blame eMTB's for all the problems. However, bringing them up in meetings gives the opponents some nice ammunition.
     
  8. Cyclotourist

    Cyclotourist iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Redlands
    Name:
    David
    Current Bike:
    Don't fence me in!
  9. littlewave

    littlewave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    Name:
    Brett
    Current Bike:
    GG Smash (Alu)
    That came off harsher than I intended @Mikie but I'm going to leave it.
     
  10. hill^billy

    hill^billy iMTB Rockstah

    Yep, Sad! The writing is on the wall. The sport has become to big and out of hand, and will only grow because of the letter E, but not just the electric persuasion? Seems to me adding now the new element of surprising another user in up direction is more scary. We go to fast to be compatible and have become bigger as a group. Coming down or up now on another trail user regardless of which user it is is scary! We have all done it at one time or another, now in a saturated area where you live, it is rider after rider, after rider that you have to step aside for if you are not on a bike. What do you think the outcome is going to be? Let’s make it mandatory for all bikers to do a background check along with taking a trail etiquette class? Going fast so you can show your friends, also Strava , to get that rush is what this sport is all about, not for everybody, but for the majority. If that is your game and you have the resources I suggest finding the places (far and few between) that is to hard for the masses so you can get your rush, otherwise slow your ass way down and do the right thing, meaning not scarring the Sh!t out of people! There is no money for enforcement in my opinion so a ban will be the easy way, and it is sad that there is nothing the well intended mountain biker can do about it! Sad! Please, if you have the magic pill let us know?
     
  11. MrGreedom

    MrGreedom Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Name:
    Ryan
    Current Bike:
    BH Lynx6
    If I owned the land, was on a horse, and some F@cker buzzed me and yelled at me in the process. I would shift my horse gear into gallop and run that F@cker down. Then issue a ban.
     
  12. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    No worries.
    My point is we can lose access. We can lose access by being rude, not using trail etiquette, and breaking the law. We think we won't lose access but we can. If we keep abusing our privilege we will lose the privilege.
    That's my point. Not blaming eBikes in this exact scenario. Sorry for the lacking clarity.
     
  13. rossage

    rossage iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    East Sacramento
    Name:
    Ross Lawson
    Current Bike:
    Highball
  14. Cornholio

    Cornholio iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    B
    Current Bike:
    Huffy
    Indeed, what a dipshit.

    I don’t understand the difficulty in having just an ounce of common sense. When I see someone on a horse I stop and wait for them to pass or get their attention if I am behind them to figure out who is doing what.

    In fact, the first time I ever met @horsebikerider was at Oaks as I was coming down the last part of Goat and I found out who she was because I stopped to exchange pleasantries with the rider that I was sharing the trails with. Really not that hard at all.
     
  15. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Oaken, Danmtchl, herzalot and 7 others like this.
  16. beartooth

    beartooth Member

    Name:
    rob
    Current Bike:
    process111
    "the most technical obstacle of them all...human interaction." too true
     
  17. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    You so need to post more. :Roflmao
     
  18. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    This is exactly why I want to hit the Lotto, have 10,000 acres, and not allow anyone else near it. I'd even post it: "Trespassers will be violated."
     
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  19. rossage

    rossage iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    East Sacramento
    Name:
    Ross Lawson
    Current Bike:
    Highball
    How about, " Trespassers will be prostituted." ?
     
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  20. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
  21. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Just as long as you’re not a dick!:whistling:




    :x3: See what I did there?
     
  22. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    Today's OC Register Front Page:
    Register Hikers v Bikers.png
     
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  23. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    what does it say in page 9?
     
  24. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    OC Register Bike v Hike pg 2.png
     
  25. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower

    Thanks….

    What a joke.

    Blame us while you are doing the same thing. Ignoring the trail usage signs.

    the lack of enforcement for anything is telling. Ranger sitting in his truck at the top of Bommer as you enter at RidgePark telling ebikers they are not allowed…then allowing them to continue on. When asked why they let them go….”we aren’t allowed to cite anyone”. WTF?
     
    tick, mike, Danmtchl and 2 others like this.
  26. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Front Range, San Gabes
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    YT Izzo
    That's as ridiculous as my County's "no-bail" release policy. According to our local law makers, it's OK to break the law, again and again... :facepalm:
     
    Danmtchl and mtnbikej like this.
  27. Dirtrider....

    Dirtrider.... Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Mission Viejo, CA
    Name:
    Paul
    Current Bike:
    Ibis Ripley V4
  28. G-man

    G-man Newbie with Hope!

    Location:
    Socal
    Name:
    Gary
    The vibe can turn tense on many Orange County trails, thanks to bigger crowds on both foot and wheels.

    “We are seeing more confrontation between hikers and reckless mountain bikers who flaunt speed rules, and make the trails an unsafe environment,” said veteran local hiker Cary Babrowsky of Aliso Viejo.

    “I am a two-time victim of a bike strike. Fortunately, no serious injuries, but I do have friends who were not as fortunate.”

    Babrowsky and other hikers, who joined cyclists at a county meeting on the conflict Wednesday evening, Dec. 1, were quick to acknowledge that most bikers are considerate in sharing the trails. But, they said, the few scofflaws create a serious safety hazard.

    Bikers at the meeting emphasized that they were doing their part and expressed an eagerness to resolve frictions.

    David Browning of the Orange County Mountain Bike Association said his group has distributed thousands of bicycle bells to help cyclists let hikers know they’re coming down the trail. Additionally, the association’s website includes an orientation program for bikers new to the area and at least one post encouraging trail etiquette.

    But some cyclists took the opportunity Wednesday to push back a bit on hikers’ complaints, hinting at the underlying tensions between the two groups.

    “The responsibility falls on all of us,” Tony Coppolino said. “We need to all go out there and recreate together. I give (hikers) at least 3-feet and let them know I’m coming. Sometimes they have ear buds and can’t hear.”

    • OCR-L-TRAILS-1203-22-PB.jpg
    • OCR-L-TRAILS-1203-30.jpg
    • OCR-L-PLAYOUTSIDE-1119-01.jpg
    • OCR-L-TRAILS-1203-31.jpg
    • OCR-L-TRAILS-1203-21-PB.jpg
    • OCR-L-TRAILS-1203-22-PB.jpg
    • OCR-L-TRAILS-1203-30.jpg
    • OCR-L-PLAYOUTSIDE-1119-01.jpg

    5 of 5
    A cyclist rides in Aliso and Wood Canyons Wilderness Park in Laguna Niguel, CA on Friday, July 9, 2021. (Photo by Paul Bersebach, Orange County Register/SCNG)

    Search for solutions
    The county Parks Commission’s Trails Subcommittee, which hosted Wednesday’s meeting at the OC Parks’ headquarters in Irvine, is exploring the possibility of restricting bike use on some trails while dedicating others solely for those with wheels.

    Traffic on trails has grown with the county’s population. But the spike in use during the pandemic — part of the surge of people seeking outdoor activities — has brought things to a head.

    From June through November, OC Parks oversaw a pilot project to address the issue at nine popular multiuse trails in three parks, Santiago Oaks Regional Park, Laguna Coast Wilderness Park, and Aliso and Wood Canyons Wilderness Park. One trail in each park was temporarily dedicated to biking only. A total of two trails were put off limits to biking, two others were made one way for all uses, and the last was multiuse with bikes restricted to one direction.

    A two-consultant team from Utah State University, hired by the county, surveyed trail users about the changes and presented findings for two of the trails on Wednesday, with additional analysis scheduled for completion and presentation next spring. Prior to the program going into effect, users expressed strong support for the new rules at the two Aliso Wood Canyon paths, the Cholla and Rock-it trails. Support grew in surveys conducted after the new restrictions were in place.

    However, both bikers and hikers at Wednesday’s meeting expressed complaints with the pilot.

    Some bikers weren’t happy about losing two trails. Some hikers felt the pilot favored bikers. Even more hikers complained of some bikers ignoring signs explaining the temporary new system — and reiterated a long-standing concern that the 10 mph speed limit was often ignored, with bikes sometimes going 30 mph or more downhill past hikers on narrow trails.

    The complaint over lack of rule enforcement — both before and during the pilot program — resonated with at least one of the five subcommittee members present.

    “If we do this perfectly but don’t deal with enforcement, what are we doing?” asked member Ron Vanderhoff, adding that he looked up enforcement action for 2019 and found that not a single citation was issued on a county trail. “It seems like we’re putting our head in the sand on that issue.”

    But Chairman John Koos said funding to enforce the rules probably isn’t coming soon.

    “There’s a lot of competing needs (for money) and diminishing resources,” Koos said. “There’s nobody to give tickets.”

    Getting along
    Hiker John Squicciarini, a retired deputy sheriff from Tustin, also doesn’t see enforcement in the future. And he would have plenty of reason to want it.

    In February, the 72-year old was hiking in Whiting Ranch when he was hit hard by a bicyclist, leaving him with injuries to both knees and his back.

    “I’ve been unable to hike since then,” he told the subcommittee. “There was no call out (from the biker), no nothing.”

    The next day, he described the arrogance and disregard of the cyclist. He also said that he’s had positive interactions with other bikers, including good conversations with the biking association’s Browning. Browning was among those who expressed his support to the subcommittee’s pilot project on Wednesday.

    “We applaud you for trying this and we’re confident you’ll find something that works,” he said.

    But Squicciarini doesn’t see increased trail restrictions — as tried in the pilot project — solving the conflict, since enforcement is unlikely and many users would like full access to all trails.

    Instead, he hopes bikers and hikers can work it out among themselves, the way that others have in different recreations — including skiers and snowboarders, and surfers who ride long and short boards.

    “The hikers and the bikers need to sit down outside of these meetings, and work something out,” he said Thursday. “People have to recognize that we have to share the land.”
     
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  29. Oaken

    Oaken Well-Known Member

    Location:
    OC
    Name:
    CeeJay
    Every few years there is one of these articles
     
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  30. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    Thanks for posting this up @G-man !
    I'm going to move this to the Trail Advocacy Forum. :thumbsup:


    EDIT: @Faust29 pointed out we had duplicate articles posted so I merged the two...

    My opinion does not represent the Site, this is just my opinion...
    Small towns have small revenue, large towns have larger revenue. The size of the town and it's benefits should not exceed the available revenue the immediate tax system can afford. The more people, the more opportunity for revenue. In my opinion, a town should not be allowed to grow past it's revenue base. However, let's face it. Today's Government does NOT know how to manage other peoples money, so clearly we have public leadership that do NOT know how to balance their checkbooks. Thus they tell you, you have no bucks to invest. Fire the politicians and get businessmen in there.

    How in the world did we ever afford the thousand upon thousands of miles of fire roads throughout each of our California National Forest back in the day?!?!? We had less people and less revenue.
    Having City, County and State officials tell us there is less and less revenue to do the right thing is because they are simply directing funds to other things. My technical term of this is "Bogus Bullshit!
    Cough up the tax payers money to do the right thing... A little bit of funding goes a long way with a lot of volunteers.


    What "is" the right thing...
    Let's face it. Everyone wants all of the trails available to them, not just some. I'm being artificially derogatory here... but hikers hate bikers, equestrians hate bikers, bikers hate eBikers, bikers hate moto's and quads on bike trails (well, at least I do).
    Asking us to sit down with other trail users and expecting us to "work it out" is really a "cop out" and here is why. EVERY GROUP HAS ITS BAD APPLES. Every group. So the equitable and logical and mature sit down and negotiate a solution only to have the rotten apples blow the reputation for the rest of us.

    Take a trail away from a user group and they cry foul. I'm one to ride a certain trail I'm not supposed to because there is no other trail like it, so... I ride it. Give me one like it and I will leave the other alone.
    Most hiking trails for me are too mundane. Let's build hiking trails for hikers and mountain bike trails for mountain bikers. When I was down visiting @herzalot and we dropped Car Wreck, I didn't really see that as a hiking trail. Give it to the mountain bikers and eliminate the speed restriction! Having a speed restriction thingy is the lamest thing I have ever heard of!o_O Who descends a railing trail at 10mph on!?!?!? Give Hikers another more hike worthy trail, even if it is right next to the bike trail. It's just not that difficult.

    Clearly mark all the trails. Make trails one direction. Period. Build mild to wild in climbing and descent. Trails can have off shoots for the extreme. Arkansas has tons of trails like that.

    Non Negotiable Prosecution...
    You break the rules and ride a hiker trail or ride a one direction trail the opposite direction? First offense... $1000 bucks. No if's and's or buts! Second time... $2000 bucks. Can't pay the find? Impound the bike until it is paid. After 90 days bike goes on auction and the funds go back into the coffer for trail maintenance. Problem solved.

    Hikers? Equestrians, eBikers? Same thing. Same fines and take their shoes and their walking sticks, horses, eBikes! :whistling:;):p

    This pussy footing around BS has gone on for years now and not any closer to resolve. Make some hard decisions and adjust the plan until people comply and "in general" are satisfied.

    Mikie
     
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As a former Amazon Associate I continue to get screwed trying to stay qualified as an Amazon Affiliate. So I quit!


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