OC Parks General Meeting on 01/09 to discuss E-Bikes

I can’t imagine anyone MTBs Peters anymore for its own sake, except to transit to and from Oaks.

nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.

 

I left the meeting after the comment period started. Very pro ebike comments and crowd, I didn’t want to say something in public and need the sheriff escort.

the county employee who was presenting was great, and really had it together. She’s obviously getting lobbied by the ebike people but she knew her stuff. The board, well, the board doesn’t know much about the parks... Folks from SHARE (I believe) spoke in favor of motos. That was disappointing but given that the bike industry is going that way, what you gonna do.


the county is asking the state and feds to respond within 90 days. I’d be surprised if the lawyers at the conservation jurisdictions heed that request, but in the end it’s up to them. Expect the feds under this administration to authorize dune buggies, and the state under this current administration to require all humans to immediately compost themselves.

 

I say we compost the legislature and ride our bikes on existing trails.

 

Thank you for going and for reporting. I have a lame excuse for not being there, but I wish I would have gone. I may have felt compelled to speak, for whatever good it would do. I have learned that in meetings like that, if the council does not hear opposing voices, they assume whomever is speaking represents the majority, or that there simply is no opposition to worry about.

 

Are you sure SHARE was supporting ebike access in the parks?

 

I can’t say 100% that I heard him correctly, given that i was standing just outside the door, but a speaker identified himself as a leader of SHARE.

 

I deeply regret not submitting a request to speak. I saw big stack of requests, and I decided that by the time they got to me everyone would be tuned out or riled up at my underrepresented position. But when I left, of the 5 that had spoken, not one was an anti-e rider. There were anti-bike and pro-e, but I’m afraid we didn’t have a voice there. That’s a big part of why I left in frustration—I don’t think we’re going to prevail unless the conservation plan folks sustain the ban.

 

I believe I have seen SHARE leadership on e-bikes over at Luge.

 

Not gonna hit the like button...

 

I do not have a stake in this one, only seen one E bike, it passed me climbing on Space. After it passed I could smell ozone. Ozone is O3, but it is not a global warming gas. I think even Algore would approve.
Happy outlaw trails

 

Glad I reconsidered and stayed home to watch the Jeopardy main event.

 

I can honestly say I've never seen anyone try to limit e-bike access anywhere at any time. I see them regularly where they aren't allowed - and have yet to see anyone handing out tickets.

To have ANY impact, they need to do what the Marines did in Camp Pendleton. Set up a road block in an area where e-bikes aren't allowed, and every e-bike coming down the trail gets stopped, ticketed, and the bike is impounded until the ticket is paid. The e-biker gets to walk out of the park. Funny how that solved the illegal trail access issues in Camp Pendleton INSTANTLY.

However I don't think that OC Parks is really that interested, one way or the other. Call me a cynic but they seem under-staffed, under-paid, and over-worked. Their #1 concern is fire. On weekends they are overwhelmed with avalanches of people who more or less trample anywhere they want, with whatever they want to ride. Just look at the motos back in CNF - and how they will even drive up to Main Divide with cutting torches to cut 6" steel pipe fencing so they can open up closed areas to moto access. Unless they start handing out huge fines, patrolling more, and impounding vehicles, NOTHING is going to change. Who cares what OC Parks has to say about e-bike access? E-bikes are already in the parks going wherever they want, whenever they want.

 

IMO, the CP problem was trespassing and more severe than an "e-offense", but that is arguable. FME, a roadblock won't get many individuals unless they're more prevalent than Chino Hills, B* or the places I ride on weekends where I see very few eMTB's. During the week it would be a waste of time considering the low activity. Only places where there would be many "captures" would be Aliso, El Moro, etc which are already patrolled to some degree. I've encountered Rangers looking for them at El Moro and B*, but nowhere else.

 

I came away from last night convinced that no enforcement will ever happen. The OC Parks board members couldn’t get the distinction between the paved river trails and single track, to them it was all one big lump of trail mileage. The ebike advocates worked to further cloud things with the “its just class 1, 20 mph, you still have to pedal” BS, and it was pretty effective.

I don’t think the board will dive in to understand the meat of the issue—that it’s not about top speed, it’s about climbing at 10 mph instead of 3 mph, and how that effectively makes the parks smaller. They will ultimately defer to the rulings of the state and feds, and step away. And while I expect that the bureaucrats understand this well, ultimately the politicians may overrule them.

 

If you sit at Four Corners in Whiting during the week at lunch, you'll see plenty. I was up there about a month ago, and in the ten minutes that I sat on the Four Corners bench, I saw only two mountain bikes, but I saw eight e-bikes in three separate parties. People are riding the park, in groups, during their lunch hours. The word is clearly out that they have nothing to fear.

It was pretty scary watching dudes tumble down from the top of Dreaded Hill, all out-of-shape and with questionable technical skills, barely in control of their 60lb e-bikes.

In my opinion, if you are somewhere you aren't allowed, it is trespassing, whether you are riding a mountain bike in Camp Pendleton, a mountain bike in San Mateo Wilderness, an e-bike in Whiting Ranch, or a moto on the Motorway. Certainly if I took my 4WD truck down Rock-It, I would expect to get in trouble. That hasn't stopped people from trying to take their 4WD trucks down the Motorway. To me the rules are black and white... the second you start thinking in terms of incrementalism and shades of grey "well I know I shouldn't be here, but I know better than the authorities/property managers, and I won't hurt anything" it is the end - and for all intents and purposes there ARE no rules.

 

You mean Miramar? Either way I don't think confiscation of bikes for riding illegal trails is a precedent we want to set considering how much riding we have that is gray area or not legal. If you really want to make the parks smaller take all the people riding those trails and squeeze them onto the legal trails that are left.


No one listened to my suggestion from years ago to solve the e-bike problem: when you see an e-biker, haul him off the bike and kick him in the balls hard as you can. Eventually they will stay away, and also won't be able to procreate.

Now the only solution is guerilla warfare. Lets all get e-bikes. Better, steal them from the e-bikers. Take them to the most crowded parks during their busiest hours. Ride like total douchebags and piss everyone off. Run hikers off the trails. Leave trash. Take a Sh!t in the middle of the trail. When confronted yell obscenities at the ranger, then flee. Yield to no one. Give e-bikers such a bad reputation the powers that be will be forced to ban them. Then come back on your pedal bike and clean up like the responsible trail user you are. I'm joking here.... maybe.

 

I think last night was a success for both OC Parks staff/commission and the users. I feel that Stacy did a great job explaining and educating why the rules are the way the are at the present time. We are on the brink of change and OC Parks needs us (users) for help and guidance on how to proceed if and when they decide to allow Class 1 bikes. I, personally, am not against them, however, I concur with commissioner Pose and some of the other users that OC Parks isn't staffed well enough to handle the change just yet. I definitely think that change is going to happen but we need to do it right. And yes, user education and trail etiquette needs to improve.

I am grateful that the opportunity is upon us to all come together and help the OC Parks administration do what is best for the land all of us users.

 

If you want to explode infractions you can compare going 1 mph over the speed limit on the freeway with DUI manslaughter. That's the level of hatred I see toward eMTB use by some. It approaches fanaticism. Doesn't matter to me; like I've said I'll ride what / where (without trespassing) / when I want as long as I can ride.

 

This morning I went for a hill run on Aliso Summit trail, and I was thinking about this exact issue. It really comes down to the level of enforcement. Even though the literal speed limit is 65 MPH, the de facto speed limit is 75. If you drive 75 or slower on California freeways you will never be pulled over. Therefore regardless of the POSTED speed limit, the REAL speed limit is 75.

Despite OC Parks saying motorized vehicles are not allowed... they aren't enforcing that rule. People bring motorized vehicles in, all the time, and no one says a thing. Therefore the defacto rule is that they are allowed... since no one will stop you or for that matter, even say anything to you.

All of this Class I versus Class II versus Class III stuff is just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. If OC Park personnel can't even regulate motorized versus non-motorized rules, does anyone for a moment think they are going to pull people over on e-bikes to check to see if they are Class I? For that matter, what about Class I e-bikes that are hacked/adapted so they no longer meet Class I guidelines? (just Google "speed hack your e-bike") It is all a big farce.

FWIW, by definition, all e-bikes (all classes) are limited to 1HP motors (750W). You think that arms race is over? It has just begun! Google "1000 watt e-bike motors". They are everywhere - already. Here's a nice video showing a guy with a 1500 watt e-bike. His speed maxes out at 34.5 MPH on a flat course... when a Class II e-bike is supposed to be speed-limited to 20 MPH throttle assist.



Here's another:



In a couple of years they will be indistinguishable from motocross bikes in terms of performance. Not a hater because they do look like a riot to ride... I just don't want to run into them on a non-motorized mountain trail.

 

That’s not a good analogy at all. Perhaps liken it to the person who parks in the middle of the road and turns on their blinkers. I’m sure they have a darn good excuse to hand out, but their lack of concern for their impact on the other users is highly anti-social. It should not be excused or apologized, it should be criticized and sanctioned.

 

I've avoided commenting... For good reason. I don't see this thread going anywhere positive. But... It's the internet and I have a keyboard. I predict Mikie will shut it down at some point.

The e-bikes do not bother me. What bothers me is the rider who takes them where they are (not yet) legal. Black Star is signed at the gate. The e-bikes pass it without a care. I see a group every Thursday. The owner of Rock and Road rides his on San Juan Trail. Or Hans Rey who basically told his Instagram followers to F@ck off when they questioned him about the same behavior. E-bikes are considered (for the time being) motorized vehicles by the Forest Service. Apparently bike shop owners, pros, and countless others know better than the personnel entrusted with caring for the forest.

I often hear the argument that it's the same as a normal biker riding too fast. "He's breaking the rules, too!" It's not the same. As a human powered rider, I am legally present and legally riding until the moment I break the speed limit. I can slow down and become legal again. The e-bike, on the other hand, is not ever legal. Its owner is violating the rules from the moment it enters the park until it leaves. The e-riders know this, and flout the rules anyway- hence the animosity.

I have yet to say a negative comment to an e-biker I encounter where they are legal. I've even had a few pleasant conversations on Maple Springs and Main Divide. My wife can not ride a bike, and probably will never be able to. I'm pretty certain she isn't at the point that she could ride even with an assisted bike. I'd love for her to try, but she won't even consider it until they are legal on more than a couple fire roads.

Rant over.

 

I hope not.

 

It’s like the smoking ban in laguna. It’s conpletely unenforced and now there are more butts everywhere because when they passed the law the public ashtrays were removed. The other day wife andi were hiking in Aliso. Ranger parked at bottom of bong drop, likely waiting to bust some chumps he saw descending. 2 guys on fairly obvious ebikes cruised past within his field of vision, neither rider nor ranger batted an eye. I’m sure the ranger was more concerned with catching the guys illegally riding bong drop (right call, probably).
I hate the proliferation of emtb’s but I’m pretty sure there’s f*** all we can do about it

 

Sigh. SAD!

 

Well said, my friend!

 

I'm in the camp where I feel it's pointless to restrict access if there is not plan to enforce it. They should actively impound ebikes that are found in prohibited areas. The fees and fines should go toward maintaining the trails. Local PDs impound DIY gas powered bicycles that don't comply with CA moped laws, usually going faster than 30mph. The problem with ebikes is that they're getting harder and harder to identify. The motors are getting smaller and batteries are being better integrated into the frame.

2013 (Motor literally hanging off the bottom bracket, battery had to be in a backpack, speed controller is in the frame covered by Plexiglas panels painted white):


2019 (battery, motor, and controller integrated into the frame):


If someone is riding something that looks like this Scott, and not riding like a hooligan, I highly doubt the non-riding ranger will be able to tell the difference between that and any other full suspension bike. I would even bet non-rider trail users would just assume this is just an ordinary mountain bike in passing.

There hasn't been one FLoop ride I've gone on lately where I haven't seen someone riding an eMTB, but I still think it's a not going to stick around like hydraulic disc brakes. There are A LOT of used ebikes on craigslist meaning people have either found out range anxiety is a bitch or they're just not into it.

I will think the tide is turning toward E when actual riders I know start buying eMTB. Until then all we can do is wait. For now, garage dust is probably the majority of dirt the average eMTB sees.

 

^^THIS^^ Anytime I bother commenting on the bike controversy on any MTB forum, this is essentially my point. My issue/concern isn't about Class 1 bikes but what will follow. Nobody will be able to tell the difference between Class 1 & 3....and it will get worse with e-motorcycles like Segways newest creation. People will be riding whatever they want and the speeds attained will be scary fast.

 

I'm actually not too worried about this facet. With more power comes less range, and the manufacturers are more focused on range rather than power. Most of their pedal assist bikes are around 250W configured for maximum range and have a "flatten the hills" riding experience. Those people who are modifying their bikes and bring them to the legal California limit of 1000W (750W Federal) or beyond, will quickly find out that their drivetrain can't handle that power and their range will drop down to probably 1/4 of what they used to have. It'll be funny to see people get stranded because they think their 80 mile advertised range in eco mode is less than 10 miles after modification. Homebrew bikes stick out like a sore thumb, so if enforcement actually happens, those should be easy to identify.

I think CA's different classes of ebikes is decent first step in actual enforcement. I believe manufacturers that are required to stamp their bikes with the particular class if it's to be sold in CA. Of course, you can counterfeit these stamps, modify, or build your own, but then you run into the issue previously mentioned of power with no usable range.

The future I see is maybe SOME mountain biking enthusiasts having an eMTB in addition to what ever else they have in their stable but not as their primary ride. Maybe a "I'm really tired after work but still want to do a sub 1hr FLoop" type bike or "my knee has been hurting lately" kind of bike.

 

Fair enough, you're obviously a "glass is half full" kind of guy. After dealing with dirt bike and then river boats for a few decades and having friends that couldn't leave a motor alone to save their lives, I believe just the opposite. You can already reprogram the output from some ebike designs on your iPhone. Everything can be maximized to get what you want out of the motor design, whether that is power or distance. Besides, as mentioned by others, batteries will only get smaller and people will carry spares. Me? I'll be on one of these. Range of 76 miles and top speed of 40 mph.

 

I've been commuting on one of those since August 2018. Of course I have the Sur Ron version. I have a Supermoto wheelset and 72v battery/custom controller set up. The bike consumes about 1Ah per mile cruising around 40-45mph in factory and current configuration. That 76 mile estimate Segway is advertising is probably flat ground at 20mph in Eco mode. Even when the bike was factory with a 60V 32Ah battery, I could not make a full round trip from Fullerton to Orange (12ish miles one way) in Sport mode. Segway's estimate is soooooooo BS. Spare batteries are not cheap either. The 72V battery I'm running cost me nearly $2k. A factory replacement is $1600 from Luna Cycles. For anyone even considering getting one of these, I don't think they're worth the coin. With the money I dropped into this thing, I could've easily have bought a Zero FX.

The Segway/Sur Ron is probably great for riding around a camp ground, but the bottom shelf components (RST/DNM) is less than optimal for anything beyond a smooth dirt path.

I've never seen, only heard, of high power eMTBs being used on local trails. Those also stick out like a sore thumb. OC Park rangers should definitely be impounding them if they see them.

I have no issue with people riding eMTB, just don't ride them where they're clearly prohibited or lie about being a QUID (qualified individual with a disability) to get around the rules.

EDIT:

I don't want to get too off topic. I think the reason why OC Parks might be pushing for eMTB access is due to being afraid of enforcing the rules. I highly doubt any ranger has issued any type of citation or impounded a bike due to potential law suits if the person is actually a QUID. Getting caught riding at night is pretty black and white, but if I was a ranger and rolled up on a person in a group on an ebike claiming to be disabled, I wouldn't know where to start regarding requesting proof... if I'd even be allowed to without violating any type of health confidentiality law.