Watts it to you? A humble discussion about power meters and fitness. arrgh

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by dustyyoungblood, Jul 10, 2017.


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  1. Friday I jumped on a Stages indoor exercise bike. Starting cold into a 20min burn with a goal of highest average watts I could make over the 20 min.

    I ended with 206 average watts. The last 12 min was in my HR yellow zone, and last 6min was in my red zone. So it was a good effort to stay over 200watts.

    I felt pretty good about the watts, but had zero reference points. That is until I saw this chart:
    power-profiling-chart.gif

    At my weight it puts me way down at the bottom of the scale.
    And even if I cut 35 pounds to reach my target weight It's a mediocre power output/mass to put it lightly.
    I am sort of crushed to discover how weak I am. And I think it explains why I get destroyed on even moderate hills.

    So whats it mean to me? I don't know. I love bikes and will ride bikes and enjoy bikes regardless of my power output. All I know is I want to climb better, longer and faster. But Sh!t man, even If I cut weight I might not have it in me. So what should I do today to make more power? Or do I even bother monitoring the data?


    Background:
    Well if you know me you know I have been on a journey path to fitness through MTB riding regularly the last 6 months, and infrequently the last 16 months but with regular GYM work and walk/run after a near 4 year hiatus coupled with weight gain and some other issues. I dropped weight quickly 16 months ago, but I have been the same weight for 1 year now, but have gained muscle. So that's good I guess.

    I been super really frustrated climbing steep hills. Massively disappointed I can't keep up with buddies and redline my HR in minutes on a climb. Although I am PR'ing climbs just about weekly since January. So progress is tangible, just in small increments.

    At 6' 235 I know I am never going to take the polka dot jersey. And as a trade off, I have a mean sprint on the flats or DH. naturally Large thighs that don't fit most pants my waist size do have one advantage, 30 seconds of high peak output.
     
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  2. Ebruner

    Ebruner Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Erik Bruner
    Current Bike:
    22' Nomad, 22' Trance x 29
    Training with power is easier then riding on the trail with power. If you're using watts to it's full extent, there is all sorts of data and algorthyms that define how fatigued you are, what your current training load is etc.

    I feel the best way to use your power numbers to train, is to sign up for a program like trainerroad. I use this and I find it pretty helpful. The program starts with 2 FTP tests (Functional Threshold Power) which is essentially a fancy term for how much effort can you sustain for 60 minutes. Once that number is established, it then uses that to tailor the effort of the workouts that follow so that it can attack certain parts of your weak points.

    At any rate, when I started the trainerroad "sweet spot" training program I started with 230FTP. When I was finished with the program my FTP was around 250 or so. These numbers meant nothing to me, (they still mean nothing)... but they were helpful in that the training was focused and targeted to my weak points and the effort level was always nearly perfect in that it pushed me to my limit, but not past it.

    Applying these FTP/Power numbers to your actual rides is way too complicated for just a single post. However, if you're really serious, it can be super helpful in understanding where you are with both fatigue, current training (work) load and improvements. Especially if you're racing.
     
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  3. DangerDirtyD

    DangerDirtyD iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    Chicken Nugget
    Current Bike:
    2018 Guerrilla Gravity SMASH
    Go to the nearest Greek Orthodox Church and ask to join the folk dance group. You'll be pushing 1,500 watts by next Tuesday.

     
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  4. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    They had that at the Greek Orthodox church across the street from me during their annual Greek Festival. ;)

    Free, and without the chic blue and white uniforms.:thumbsup:
     
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  5. So I just tried again. went 219avg/20min and had to shut down 45 sec early. Still miserably weak. But I'll try harder
     
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  6. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    "Starting cold"? Did you do a proper warm up first?

    Here's how you get stronger:
    Ride more
    Ride harder
    Suffer

    No short cuts (unless you dope, I don't).

    If you can't do all three (riding more being the hard one), then do the other two. Just realize you are compromising.

    Dropping weight will help WAY more then you think. It isn't just your w/kg that it improves. It also improves endurance and your ability to handle the bike.
     
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  7. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    A 20 minute FTP test (what you did) should leave you feeling like death afterword. You shouldn't do one more than once every few weeks, and only when feeling fresh (take some easy days before hand).
     
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  8. HBkites

    HBkites Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Huntington Beach
    Name:
    Sharone
    Current Bike:
    Why S7, Revel Rascal, Spark RC
    I didn't sleep @ a holiday inn express last night, but climbing is a power to weight ratio game.
    If you figure out a way to drop 5% of your weight and add 5% more power, you will be climbing faster (Lighter 29" bike help as well).


    I know that I'll probably be faster @ 200 lbs., but I definitely be hungrier. It is just nor worth it.
    I'm happy @ 215 lbs. Pissted off @ 220.
     
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  9. I guess it's been only really 4 months of consistent effort to ride. this is 90% dirt
    Out past Feb was average 1/2 these numbers or less.


    June
    • 142.7mi
    • 18h 26m
    • 17,009ft
    May



      • 111.1mi
      • 13h 32m
      • 12,548ft
    April



      • 67.4mi
      • 8h 34m
      • 7,823ft
    March



      • 126.3mi
      • 15h 59m
      • 13,909ft
    February



      • 63.1mi
      • 8h 10m
      • 6,356ft
     
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  10. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    Don't worry about miles, climbing, or anything but hours. Seat time spent moving is all that matters. If you can squeeze in one or two short, hard rides during the week and one long easy ride on the weekend, wait a year, then try that FTP test again.
     
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  11. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    Hmmmm - measurement and data acquisition can certainly lead to scientifically proven improvement, but it sure sucks the fun out of life, IMO. Save the charts, graphs, power meters, thresholds and blah blah for work, and enjoy riding your bike. Data often leads to obsession and disappointment. If you ride often enough, challenge yourself with those faster riders, drop some weight and enjoy riding, you'll get faster in no time. Hard to keep up with lighter 29ers though.

    That said, I am the last person who should give advice on improving one's climbing. But, I have a keyboard and an internet connection, so I am entitled to chime in anyway.

    If you really want to be a better climber, ride with me. Chances are, you will drop me like a bad habit on the climbs and smile ear to ear while waiting at the top! :thumbsup:
     
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  12. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    Oh, and bike choice means nothing. Forget the "I can't keep up with a light 29er". Yes, you can.

    Don't get in to the "buying speed" trap. Just ride the bike that gives the most pleasure.
     
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  13. I yeah I totally get that position.
    But I am having so much fun with Strava. We have inter office trophies and battles and I love the competition. And at 42 I sort of feeling like I got a second chance at being fit and I want take every tool I have access to to be the best me I can be.
     
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  14. Cornholio

    Cornholio iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    CA
    Name:
    B
    Current Bike:
    Huffy
    If you really want to nerd out on Strava add the Stravistix plugin thingy through Chrome. I have it at work and was actually just looking at my current stats versus the past couple of years earlier today before seeing this thread!

    +1 on saddle time. Before my son was born I was riding 3+ times a week regularly and most of my climb PR's are from then. My DH PR's aren't as dependent on how often I am riding but when I look at certain segments I notice my times are more consistent during the times I'm riding often and all over the place in the past year or so.

    My goal these days is to be on the bike enough to hang on longer rides. I focus more on how I am feeling during and after rides but know I will not be as fast as I was anytime soon (baby 2 will be here in October). I get the desire to improve times but don't get hung up on the wrong area of that, focus on improving fitness for the fun factor!
     
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  15. HBkites

    HBkites Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Huntington Beach
    Name:
    Sharone
    Current Bike:
    Why S7, Revel Rascal, Spark RC
    Looking at your numbers................. You need to ride more!
    If you can figure out a way to climb more (over 10k a week), you will improve.

    I don't want to sound like a jackass, but the guys that "fly up the hill" have over 200K climbing year to date. Some of them are over 300K.
     
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  16. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    If you have a set up that allows you to connect to Zwift, that's a fun way to get some seat time in at home on the trainer. I haven't been using it since this winter since I have been doing so many outdoor hours, but I need to get back on it at least in a limited capacity.
     
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  17. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    @Sidewalk and @HBkites and @Cornholio are correct....you need to ride more. More time in the saddle will make you stronger.

    I know part of the reason is riding the heavy Enduro rig.

    I haven't done an FTP test...I don't know what my watts are. I'd like to think that riding the SS has made me strong. I'd like to think that riding the SS on long endurance rides has made me really strong. I'll admit, I'm not fast....but I just keep moving. Have spent a lot of hours suffering....but I enjoy it.

    Not sure how reliable the Watts/Est. Power is on Strava....but my last Holy Jim to San Juan Loop showed an average of 135w, however most of my 6-10 hr rides are in the 150-160w average.
     
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  18. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Front Range, San Gabes
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    YT Izzo
    I ride to escape all of this reality...

    It, along with fishing, is the only time I can clear my head of the overwhelming responsibilities of adult life.

    So, just ride.
     
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  19. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    It's okay for road, worthless for dirt.
     
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  20. Runs with Scissors

    Runs with Scissors iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    West Anaheim
    Name:
    Mark Whitaker
    Current Bike:
    Giant XTC with pedals
    Strava is notoriously bad at wattage absent a power meter.

    And I'll agree with everyone else. More saddle time x more hills = faster and longer.

    And this: As our riding habits change our bikes change. Short version is I can't do today on a 1x10 with much beefier tires what I did on a 3x9 with 1.95" tires.:cool:
     
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  21. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    Interesting topic... Like the others have said, the secret is to ride more and push harder!

    My "data" was the Live Oak climb in O'Neill. A couple times per month starting in 2011 until I could clean it consistently to the bench, without turning around and rolling defeated back down the hill. I was a freight train on those "give up" days. Me, the bike and gear were probably 340 pounds rolling back down! :p Then a couple more months to clean it consistently to the top of Vista! Then the rides just kept getting bigger and bigger... If getting to bigger rides is your goal, much a little farther each time. From the sounds of it recently, you're already improving. :thumbsup:

    I wouldn't mind knowing how much power I produce, but it's not something I'll invest in... I tend to just look at the elevation/mile from year to year. 128/mile last year and 144/mile for this year so far.
     
  22. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.

    Funniest conversation a couple weeks ago while heading up Black Star... And I'm paraphrasing.

    Mark: I'm gonna hit 90,000 feet!
    Jason, with a straight face: For the month?

    o_O:confused:
     
  23. Luis

    Luis iMTB Addict

    Location:
    Sylmar
    Name:
    Luis
    Current Bike:
    La Diabla
    That chart gave me a headache. I'm gonna go ride my bike until it goes away.
     
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  24. mike

    mike iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Western US
    Name:
    Mike O
    Current Bike:
    HT, FS
    Bravo to improving yourself – for your own quality of life as well as those around you.

    Agree with @HBkites and @mtnbikej that your awesome cheater bike is the wrong tool for this job. You're already good enough at descending that you could do it on any bike/setup – maybe not quite as fast. But the net effect of an easy pedaller can't be ignored...especially when many/most are designed toward trail riding. Big hoops, light tires and less suspension will make you a better climber. Gains = interest = participation = gains = ...

    FWIW, I don't train, I just have fun.

    LOL @DangerDirtyD
     
  25. You all have wonderful observations. Thanks for commenting. I'll use them all for good :)

    Don't worry, I promise that regardless of watts I have more fun than anyone else on a bike. I love it. Except for the other day when I was dehydrated, that was not a fun ride.

    And I don't really care about the numbers like it may seem from my post, in fact two months ago I stopped wearing my HR strap on the trail because I found it distracting and all it was telling me was "yes you are at 95% on that climb and yes you suck, but thanks for trying so hard"

    But I do care about getting dropped by the group and haveing to skip any extra credits to avoid bonking. It's less fun when your buddies are chatting at 80% and I am blowing up about to hike wishing I had 28-46 instead of only 30-44 and about to puke. And it's sucks when I can't break 13 min on mustard and I lone my bike to a buddy who is 25lb less and he hits 9min first try on a hot day. That makes me wonder if it's just the mass or if there is more to it. Does he have more power?

    Ride more, good advice I'll take it
     
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  26. scan

    scan iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    fran allas
    Current Bike:
    Scott Spark
    Maybe you need to ride with riders closer to your level, who push you but don't crush you!! Not fun psychologically always needing to catch up and feel as if riders are racing.
     
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  27. herzalot

    herzalot iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Chris
    Current Bike:
    2020 Revel Rail,Yeti SB 130 LR
    ...says the racer!

    I didn't suggest buying a different bike, but those of us who struggle with climbing need to be OK with the fact that our DH oriented machines will not keep pace with the climbing machines if all other things (fitness, weight, technique) are equal, which they are not. Dusty probably knows and accepts that bit of truth.

    I couldn't agree with your last sentence more. Ride the bike that gives you the most pleasure. I've seen two schools of thought when purchasing the "next" bike - get one that will help you with your weaknesses, or get one that will let you enjoy your strengths the most. I've always chosen the latter. It's why I ride. Others ride for fitness, adventure, the challenge of big numbers, isolation, decompression, etc. I ride up 'cause the downs are fun and I want to be somewhat physically fit.

    That said, it sounds like Dusty digs mining the data and getting some tangible evidence of improvement. Go @dustyyoungblood go! :thumbsup:
     
  28. SnakeCharmer

    SnakeCharmer iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    Front Range, San Gabes
    Name:
    Mike, aka "Ssnake"
    Current Bike:
    YT Izzo
    Hydration: That plays a huge role in how you are going to perform on any given ride or anything that you do will exerting yourself. If I am going to do a sizable ride, I start hydrating myself the night before. If it's going to be a local/average ride, I hydrate shortly before I take off. Most of us do not drink enough fluids anywhere, any time. Make an effort to hydrate yourself better before, during , and after you exert yourself and I think you will see improved results. If you are not feeling the urge to pee regularly, then you are not drinking enough fluids. Taking a pee in the woods is a beautiful thing. :cool:
     
  29. Sidewalk

    Sidewalk iMTB Rockstah

    Location:
    The road is where I call home
    Name:
    Josh
    Current Bike:
    N+1
    I've been beat in an XC race by someone on an enduro bike. It was his off season so the race result didn't matter.

    I normally ride a heavy aluminum trail bike, 30+ pounds with 2.4 tires (largest that clear the swing arm), Flow wheels, etc. It's my fun bike, the one I don't mind tossing down the trail.

    My MTB friends don't know where I started and have to take my word for it. But I'm down 55 pounds from where I started (take another 8 more off for my triathlon peak condition). I didn't wake up one day and decide to be fast, I have, and still do, work VERY hard. I average around 20 hours a week on the bike (actual moving time).
     
  30. So what is your 20min average watts with your current training level?
     


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