So I rode an e-bike ...

Discussion in 'Bike Reviews' started by H2oChick, May 16, 2016.


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  1. H2oChick

    H2oChick Well-Known Member

    Name:
    K-Oss
    yes, and I put it in writing.
    At our event this weekend Rock n Road brought some demo bikes and a couple were e-bikes.
    After giving Stu some grief for bringing these I was coerced to trying one out.
    It's a pedal assist two-wheel behemoth that I rode around the parking lot and then took it a short way down Raptor. We had some ladders and other features set up but I didn't feel comfortable taking it on the teeter-totter or the pump track.
    Once you start pedaling the "assist" kicks in and you can feel the pull then the lunge back; not very friendly for tight turns either.
    I am sure these have a purpose (campus, trail permimeters?) but I don't like them on MTB trails.
    Just my opinion (we're still allowed to that right?) -
     
  2. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    Thanks for sharing your perspective after riding one. :thumbsup:

    We saw a couple e-beasts in Aliso yesterday on the way down Rock-it... I imagine that's a pretty common occurrence now. I really can't see their presence making the Aliso hikers any more cheerful on the trails. They're a pretty grumpy lot as it is. A silent 20 mph bike will not help that relationship.
     
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  3. ridinrox

    ridinrox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Fullerton
    Name:
    Roxanne
    Current Bike:
    '16 Giant Trance Advance
    Have no shame by putting it in writing; you had an open mind and tried it. Good on you!

    I will try one if the opportunity presents itself. I'll still plan on pedaling myself as long as my body permits, however, when the day comes that my body isn't strong enough to pedal w/o assistance, you better believe I'll be grateful there's such a device. :thumbsup:
     
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  4. StrandLeper

    StrandLeper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Timothy M. Ryan
    Current Bike:
    SC Bronson 1x/Pivot 429 1x xtr
    I blame @Faust29 ! We were fixing his flat when they happened upon us at the midway point. (by "We" I mean @Faust29 and Sherpa @mtnbikej were fixing the flat while I was hydrating, wishing that I had gone to bed earlier, and cracking stupid jokes).

    I said something about their e-bikes, but didn't get all nutty "gee I didn't know Rocky Mountain made an e-bike" or something like that. J was discussing the finer points of the "intended use" with @Faust29 and I, but not in a demeaning or obnoxious way... Just loudly enough for our electronic friends to hear. I didn't want to ruin the stoke of our ride by going any deeper. Jzilla's approach was pitch perfect.

    I actually might get a pedal assist bike so I can get into town and back in the summer without getting drenched in sweat. (1 mile and 800 feet or so above town). My road bike makes it easy, but it's still sweaty. Trails, however, no.
     
  5. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    Having built a good number of e-mtb bikes. I've gotta say that pedal assist sucks for anything besides smooth and straight. It's too easy to pop a wheelie on a technical climb over some roots or rocks. It's actually easier to cut the power and actually manually pedal the behemoth.

    Half grip throttle works the best on dirt. Power only when you need it. It's way more efficient than pedal assist which gives you power when you don't need nor want it.

    Strandleper, I guarantee you'll still be drenched in sweat. You'll just get to where you're going much quicker. I commuted on an e-mtb for several years, and the input effort is the same as a regular bike, you just end up going much faster.

    10367549_10203699252029039_7067935466638666138_n.jpg

    There are a lot of things I miss about e-mtb, when it came to actually just going places; however, nothing beats a light weight simple rig when you're out in the wilderness.

    I parted out my last e-mtb over a year ago, and I don't see myself going back unless I get seriously injured.
     
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  6. fos'l

    fos'l Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Bob
    Current Bike:
    2005 Santa Cruz Superlight
    Skyungjae - other thing that could happen is you could get seriously old. Anyway, read some of your threads and they were very helpful.

    Rode a Faraday Porteur S 250w, Class 1 city bike yesterday around Hart Park trail to Chapman down Newport to 17th to watch my son play soccer. Trip of 17 miles in an hour. Two levels of PAS; level 1 good for an easy 18 mph and 2 for 20 (you guys would be much faster). Very confidence inspiring at 32 mph down Newport Blvd. Bike was still pulling well after 18 miles, but can't think the small 243 w/h battery had much left. Pretty impressive, but $2500. Not a MTB, but have ridden it on dirt roads (dual purpose tires) so it's somewhat MTB related

    By the way apologies to forum since AFAICT I was totally wrong about ebikes being allowed in parks. Don't think so now. Sorry.

    Also, rode my pMTB at Aliso in the PM, so still got some "good" exercise.
     
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  7. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    I own a Specialized Levo pedal assist bike, not to be confused with an electric bike. Read CA AB 1096 to learn about the different classes of E-bikes and the legal differences between pedal assist and electric bikes.

    I for one would not ride my pedal assist bike in any the county parks. I know the rangers had meeting with Rock and Road said the county said no to e-bikes on county singletrack....the county just has not put up the signs yet. About e-bikes in tight singletrack you need to get use to the bike, use pedal assist in the lowest power output or they tend to push you off the trail. After a couple of hours on the bike and you get used to it. I hope people take the time to learn about pedal assist and ride one before commenting on their use. If I put someone on a e-bike with out MTBing knowledge they would think it was a lot of work. We that ride know that this is easier but still not easy. The justification I use is that anything that gets people out exercising and using the forest and parks is a good things. Stupid people will act stupid whether on a e-bike or a MTB.

    Dean
     
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  8. knucklebuster

    knucklebuster Well-Known Member

    Location:
    34.2295° N, 117.2257° W
    Name:
    Dave
    Current Bike:
    Guerrilla Gravity Megatrail
    Tangent to topic, but that's much different than my experience at Aliso, maybe you hit it on a bad day? (but I was there the same day I think). I ride quite a bit at Aliso and I've not run into that many grumpy hikers there. Yes a few, but being courteous, yacking it up with them and asking them if they'll push my bike up the hill while I walk their dog :), etc seems to go a long way. I'd say 95% are pretty cool in my interactions. There was that one lady with a walking pole that threatened to spear me with it if I got close to her (even though I was sitting still and being nice)... And the guy last weekend on a human powered-bike cranking 20mph+ up the main canyon startling and rubbing elbows with hikers and not saying anything to them is part of it too.

    Anyway, I still think it has more to do with the rider and their courteousness or lack of .... If every rider is a jerk yes the hikers are going to hate them all whether they are on hp-bike or pa-bike, no matter what trail or fire road, non-motorized or not. This is not a e-bike issue, imo, it's a people issue and goes on in all parts of life.... discourteous people suck and will piss others off.

    More on topic, enjoy reading about the people that have actually ridden a pedal assist.... still not something I'm much interested in doing at this point, but I like to know about new things and how they work. :thumbsup:
     
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  9. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    I'm probably hypersensitive, as most of my rides are hiker free... I was just keeping a loose tally in my head, and there were several that I said "Hello" to that never flinched, responded, or made any acknowledgement...

    We did see two e-bikes, though... while fixing my tire on Rock-It. They were in a good sized group of younger guys...
     
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  10. tick

    tick Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    Tick
    Current Bike:
    Process 111
    I was starting to get excited about the new Tallboy, then you guys reminded me that our sport will be outlawed in a year or two, so never mind.
     
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  11. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    e-mtb certainly has a long ways to go in terms of tech, advocacy, and regulations.

    I'm guessing it'll take maybe a decade to reach the same level of acceptance that e-bikes have as viable commuters.

    I'm also willing to bet when a lot of us get older, and can't put the same torque through our joints, e-mtb usage will grow.

    I like the idea that we can all share the trails, but all it takes is that one ass (not necessarily on two wheels) to ruin it for everyone.
     
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  12. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    E-bikes companies feel that they have as many people out of their cars and on e-Bikes as they are going to get, so they are looking at new markets...MTBing being one of those markets. Specialized sells 300 Levo's in Europe to every one Levo in the USA and they don't foresee that changing. Due to the laws in the US being passed against there use and the acceptance of e-bikes on singletrack in Europe they have a foothold. Sometimes I think I should retire in Europe.

    Dean
     
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  13. Mikie

    Mikie Admin/iMTB Hooligan

    Location:
    NW Arkansas
    Name:
    Mikie Watson
    Current Bike:
    Ibis DV9 / SC Hightower
    If we can get all the anti mountain bike trail users to move to Europe.... you wouldn't have too! ;)
     
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  14. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    One of the things I love about California is that the Sierras don't have any roads crossing them from Sherman Pass to Tioga Pass. That's an incredible situation for backcountry adventures, but not great for mountain biking. European ranges and even the Rockies seem much more cut up and harder to find solitude in. I personally hope many trails stay off-limits to motorized (and even mechanical) assistance, but feel your pain.

    One thing that I've noticed from doing various sports is that speed and efficiency reduce the size of our playgrounds. An area that takes a full hour to hike can take 1/2 that time running. Get on a bike and it gets smaller still. Use a motor to assist the rider and it's even smaller. Get on a motorcycle and you can take it down 5 minutes. I'm not saying it happens with older or disabled users on e-bikes, but in general it's a trend I see.

    Dean, I hope you can continue to find available trails to explore and have fun on as you get older, however you prefer to enjoy them.
     
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  15. Louis Zegarra

    Louis Zegarra Member

    Location:
    Eastvale
    Name:
    LouisZ
    Current Bike:
    Giant Stance
    I follow this kid's tips and tricks. He got a hold of an e-bike.

     
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  16. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    It opens a can of worms....what is to stop these. All mountain bikes look alike.

     
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  17. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    I mostly bought the bike to see what they are about. It is one of 9 bikes in my garage . The size of the playground on a e-bike is very limited, I would be surprised, at my weight, if I could get a 5000 foot climb out of it without carrying a 6 pound backup battery. On a normal ride I am thinking about 15-20 miles and a 3000foot climb is going to drain one battery. Most of my rides are much longer than that so the Levo will not be the weapon of choice.

    The backbone trail in Santa Monica Mountains has been opened to pedal assist bikes. The state of California is thumbs up on all electric modes of transportation.

    Levo uses a 250 watt motor while a electric bikes I demoed at the electric bike company had a 750 watt motor. The differences are extreme.

    Dean
     
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  18. Faust29

    Faust29 Moderator

    Location:
    irgendwo
    Name:
    B. Bunny
    Current Bike:
    I gots some bikes.
    I'm getting old. That German was almost unintelligible. o_O
     
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  19. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    Not a pedal assist bike full blown electric bike with a throttle. This will be the problem people lumping all e-bikes into one category. Again I ask that people to read AB1096.

    Dean
     
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  20. mtnbikej

    mtnbikej J-Zilla

    Location:
    Orange
    Name:
    J
    Current Bike:
    SC Chameleon SS, SC Hightower
    This will be the problem with people lumping mtn bikes with ebikes....to the laymen....they all look the same. :thumbsdown:
     
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  21. kioti

    kioti iMTB Rockstah

    Name:
    Jim Jennings
    Current Bike:
    ibis ripley
    I read the amended version of the bill. Seems like the lawmakers main goal was to make restrictions concerning street use, which is fine. Battery power is preferred over gas these days for environmental reasons. But that's not the issue here. In parks created to preserve habitat and natural forms of recreation, even our human powered bicycles (machines) are a stretch. Seems a lot easier to ban all bikes than try to enforce restrictions on those with motors, but hopefully it'll never come to that.
     
  22. fos'l

    fos'l Well-Known Member

    Name:
    Bob
    Current Bike:
    2005 Santa Cruz Superlight
    Pretty soon (possibly) it won't only be the laymen who can't discern eMTB's from pMTB's; look at the Vivax (seat tube) motor; low power for now, but the future???? Also, the Faraday that I rode recently has the batteries concealed in the down tube. Going to be interesting.

    Also, as far as range; my friend weight with bike 190 pounds on a Bosch-equipped bike using eco (low PAS) and (one higher level - can't remember what it's called) rode 9 miles, 3000' of climbing and used 60% of the 396 w/h battery.
     
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  23. Louis Zegarra

    Louis Zegarra Member

    Location:
    Eastvale
    Name:
    LouisZ
    Current Bike:
    Giant Stance
    I envision one day the power supply being even more smaller and inconspicuous because of technology that will charge the battery as you pedal and brake.
     
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  24. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    Verbiage in 1096 about bike lanes and trails. I am OK on fireroads, moto trails and Backbone trail for now. With the oversized tires plus tires I will be all over Anza Borego.

    So far except for the BLM ruling that states must be used on motor legal trails things are murky. This will be a interesting topic to follow.

    Dean
     
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  25. skyungjae

    skyungjae Member

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    Name:
    Kyung Jae
    Current Bike:
    2015 Santa Cruz Bronson C
    Battery tech does continue to improve as well as the motor tech in general, but you can't break the laws of thermodynamics. On the mid-drive e-bikes, if pedaling is giving juice back to the battery, it's taking that energy from the rider making it much harder to pedal. I've played with this idea with the mid-drives I've built, and the return was sooooooo small and not worth pedaling against the motor's magnets.

    Regen on hub motors has more benefits though, it acts as a brake by itself, but it puts tons of stress on the dropouts. Charge return is still not that great though.

    I think it's easier for local jurisdictions to change their signage. People can argue that certain e-bikes are not "motorized vehicles" as defined by the law, but if the sign says, "no motorized bicycles" it does include e-bikes.

    People are pretty innovative in this area, so I'm sure there will be some sort of e-bike/e-mtb that would be somewhat more acceptable on all bicycle trails. There are some cool designs that replace the bottom bracket and are incredibly compact. The amount of wattage they provide isn't enough to propel the bike on its own on any serious incline, but it does relieve some of the torque stress on the rider. I'm sure these would also be good for all day long rides with the way battery tech is headed.
     
  26. dstepper

    dstepper Member

    Location:
    Laguna Beach
    Name:
    Dean Stepper
    Current Bike:
    2014 Turner Czar
    No pedal assist bike can be propelled without pedaling. Pedal assists has more than enough power to self propel it is the requirement of no throttle that puts them in the non motorized category, plus no motor over 750 watts. The law separates pedal assist and makes pedal assists "non motorized" so local agency's can set there own policies. Much confusion and by the time you think you have it right it will change again. It is a fast moving subject.

    Dean
     
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  27. levity

    levity Member

    Location:
    elsewhere
    Name:
    gone
    This is my reply to Wheezy's post "Haters gonna hate, I rode an ebike" in the General Discussion forum. Because it's more of a bike review than a love/hate fest, I thought it would be more appropriate for this thread and forum.

    -------

    Nice write-up, Wheezy. You make a lot of good points, and it’s good to hear that you had fun with the Turbo Levo. An E-bike may be just the ticket by allowing you to handle rides that are more aerobically demanding than you would otherwise be able to. I’ll add a short review/opinion from a different perspective. For the record, I have no problem sharing all trails with Class 1 E-bikes (or even hikers!) or sharing some other trails (USFS, BLM) with motorcycles, ATVs, jeeps, etc.

    Mrs levity and I ride Stumpjumper 6Fatties on the same trails you describe, so we’re familiar with how that bike design and the plus-sized 3.0 tires perform. We too were recently convinced by our LBS to try the Turbo Levo 6Fattie over a weekend and compare the two. Note, however, that we’re a lot lighter weight than you (110 and 160 lb), and have no disabilities other than my advanced age (70). We were able to get in about 60 miles of riding and 6000 ft climbing in Bommer Canyon, El Morro, and Chino Hills. We used the slick Mission Control app on our phones to vary the power of the settings, tried the three power assist levels at various percentages, and watched the wattage output of the rider and motor change. Mrs levity, being lighter and stronger, could use lower power settings to achieve similar speeds.

    Uphill: exhilarating! A hoot to blast up grades I usually suffer on. Turns long climbs into molehills. Even neat to zip up gradual grades at higher speeds.

    Flats: can be fun. Accelerate out of corners and get going faster than usual. The shortcoming is that the heavy bike is not as agile and playful as the lighter non-E version (50 lb vs 26/28 lb). Duh! Longer chainstays likely also contributed some to lazier handling. That said, it’s surprising how well it does with the mass down low and centralized.

    Downhill and technical: more marginal. With the 140/135mm (F/R) travel and big tires you can do it, but the weight affects handling and how aggressively you ride. This may be less of a factor for heavier riders. The reduced fork travel compared to the non-E version (140mm vs 150mm) is noticeable but could be remedied easily by swapping in a 150mm air-shaft. Simply replacing the Autosag air can on the Fox shock with the Evol version should also help firm up the mid-range travel.

    Range: OK. However, it’s too short for what me might consider using an E-bike for, i.e., longer sight-seeing rides. Simple physics dictates that battery life depends on how you use it and rider weight. For me at 160 lb and riding like a hooligan about 30 miles and 3,000 ft climbing; if used in moderation about 40 miles and 4,000 climbing. Mrs levity at 110 lb could get about 1/3 more distance and elevation. Not more than we can do on a non-electric bike, just faster and/or less tired afterwards. I did notice slightly more upper body fatigue than expected, but assume I’d get used to pushing the pork around.

    Top power-assisted speed: too low. We found ourselves wishing the motor would continue to contribute above the 20 mph cutoff. This would add to the fun factor. Otherwise you’re actually slower than on a regular bike due to having to pedal the extra weight.

    Mechanical/technical issues: it’s complicated! We like to be able to fiddle with, repair and completely build our bikes, and the electrical drive system and proprietary cranks preclude this.

    What we would like: We would happily give up half the power (or more) for lighter weight and greater range. A 40 lb model that would go 60+ miles with 6,000+ ft elevation gain and continue output to 25-30mph would be more appealing to us. This would also make it easier to pedal out a bike with a dead battery.

    Bottom line: for us, for now, just not as playful and fun overall as the non-E version. We’ll stick with our regular 6Fatties for now, but we may reconsider for tourist-type rides in the future if advances in technology lower the weight and extend the range significantly. Of course, if some disability makes it just too tough to pedal without assistance…
     
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