2017 Hightower Vs. Bronson (a survey)

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^^^ A more appropriate chunk of learning for my knowledge base and facility for digesting such.

But actually, I did understand most of what you described in your missive because you translated it immediately to what it would feel like on the bike. Thank you. I experience in my Tracer what you described - a harshness at the top of the stroke that my Knolly did not have. Being exact with sag on this version of VPP is critical to the bike's performance up and down hills.

I am sure!

Thanks. This will suffice.

 

I'm getting dizzy reading some of this stuff but keep it coming. All I know is I seem to favor 29er bikes with shortish travel cause they pedal good and are more capable bikes than I am rider. My feeling is that if your not using almost every mm of travel then it's just a number and you need to tweak some settings. That being said I've got my eyes on a stunning used Yeti 5.5 that'l probably be a whole new learning curve.

 

Big V.. agree keep it coming I will re-read ... again. I'm an engineer and can absorb most the math etc., agree with @herzalot what is really helpful when you translate to things we feel on the bike.

The little bit extra PSI in the B the other day I feel for my riding / climbing style it was a positive for me.

I think for me I like being just to the left of the high leverage point while seated climbing to feel that "platform", then as get aggressive I have a nice midstroke to work with. (Yikes hopefully that makes sense)

One thing that bothers me sometimes is we set rear sag seated .. good for climbing but when descending I am up on pedals with weight more evenly distributed...hmm not sure what to think of that.

Will say the couple extra PSI has felt really good on the descent too , think I was too soft, Can't go by the bottom out thing on my rides as that would put me too low / too much sag.

Thx!

 

@bvader So in other words, you're running less sag in the rear, maybe 25%. This gets you a more efficient ride that rides high in its travel and is more ready to absorb consecutive hits, since it's not using excessive travel on each hit due to the extra support from the spring. Before, with a softer spring, you might have been wanting more reliable traction, compliance, forgiveness, and comfort, but may have found excessive travel was being used in chunk, and you felt like the bike was being pushed to its limits sooner, and you may have felt feedback from the harsh ramp up from a progressive spring rate; this may have put more demand from you as a rider to handle the terrain, as the bike was already mostly spent after the first hit and needed time to recover, perhaps prompting you to slow down to give it this recovery time. You may have found that there's no less traction with the firmer spring, especially since you're not on the brakes as much when you actually need the traction and control, with extra control from having your muscles in a prepared state, as you are allowing the bike to handle the terrain and are expecting a certain level of feedback which you consider fine/normal (might take a test run or two to know what the bike's capable of handling without your input with a firmer spring), rather than actively reacting to demanding feedback from the bike/terrain with a softer spring.

Yes, all these words to describe the feeling from adding more air... that's how I perceive it, when someone says they're running 25% sag on a Bronson V2, vs 30% or more.

Regarding the subject weight distribution, I wrote a detailed post about it, which I'll leave a link at the bottom of the post for you to browse later. It might be too deep, so you should prepare yourself for a long read.

In general, you want to set sag according to how you will be positioned a vast majority of the time. Santa Cruz's seat angle places you well within the ideal balance point, when in the saddle on level ground, perhaps a little forward with climbing in mind. Your body should intuitively feel the balance of the bike and place itself into the bike's balanced position, with your body's CoG above and a little forward of the BB. Shouldn't have excessive pressure forward on the bars in either position, leaving most weight going through the BB, centered around your CoG (perhaps a foot forward of your hips). Dynamic geo when the pitch of the trail changes, and how weight shifts rearward when standing on descents, or when seated on climbs, is an interesting engineering challenge. Each brand has their own idea, policy, philosophy, etc. on how to tackle this. I find myself attracted to Yeti's linear suspension, which does away with all the position sensitive tweaking and gives all the support you can want from the spring itself, which perhaps can be too much for an average man. Specialized and Ibis seem to cater to the side that wants softness, forgiveness, and playful springiness that I perceive as being on the casual side of riding, best enjoyed with a short wheelbase. Perhaps it's no coincidence that Santa Cruz trail bikes are so similar to Yeti's trail bikes. They're like one step closer to casual than Yeti trail bikes, with Yeti being more race focused end on the spectrum and Santa Cruz being more friendly to the average man.

In case some don't know, sometimes the entirety of the exposed stanchion/slider does not goes past the seal to push that o-ring to the end. The stroke is what it says it is in the specs... might measure more if they made the lowers or air can only as long as necessary, or less due to negative springs and top out bumpers preventing full top-out. For example, old Fox forks had more stanchion showing than they had travel. Having extra length may cause misunderstanding, but it allows for more space for oil and other things, not to mention more surface area for heat transfer.

*Link regarding weight distro, for when you're ready. (MTBR)

Regarding encouragement to keep it coming. It's coming as long as there's questions, misunderstanding, and demand for answers. I'm partially encouraged due to being peeved that media sites, such as PinkBike and BikeRadar, don't have a solid understanding of what they're talking about, especially regarding adding volume spacers and getting a feel they didn't expect and taking stars off, due to their own misunderstanding. Stick to VitalMTB, IMO. I've called BikeRumor out on it a couple times, and I'm impressed that they actually went out to try and get educated, and shared it, so I think they're respectable at least for being more true to journalism than some marketing/media house. That and I often see a need to correct the tendencies of people trying to simplify and generalize complex subjects, and butchering facts by discussing them out of context, which generates more misunderstandings...

 

@Mikie quit thinking about it and buy both. One bike quiver bah, don't believe in that. You'll want one of each once you ride both. If I could redo, would of went SB4.5 and SB6.

 

@Varaxis

- mixed wheel sizes (ex. 29er front, 650b rear) **Race Enduro bike already in this format, developed two years ago. Foes Mixer https://foesracing.com/bikes/frames/foes-mixer-trail/ (California manufacturer as well)**

 

Two IMTBers ride the Mixer - @StrandLeper has the Mixer Enduro and @dustyyoungblood has the Mixer Trail.

 

@Mikie

Have you had an opportunity to demo either of these yet?

 

Not yet Sir.
@Voodoo Tom and I were going to attempt that this weekend.

 

I just booked a Large Hightower 27.5+ for this weekend.

 

Thanks for the invite.

 

And the plot thickens!!!
Will be interested in hearing the results of the demo!

 

@Mikie come to Laguna and ride my Foes Mixer or my Bronson. Or, we ride together and switch back and forth.

 

Both are too big for the lad, unfortunately.

 

Where you takin' it?

 

Put a GoPro on that bad boy and let us enjoy the ride vicariously!

 

@herzalot
Well this weekend I'm going to cruise Golden Eagle. Gotta stay local.
A challenge for me is I ride Moto Brakes so my rear brake is on the left side and demos are on the right. That's a big deal for me. So to go hammer some crazy fun chunk could be fatal, haha! So I'm dating at a familiar place and just going to feel out how a new bike feels.

Going to be a while before I buy a bike. Me gots to do some saving, so no hurry.

 

Brother, I would just like coming down and go riding with you, regardless of wife swapping! Thank you my friend!

 

Cool. Well, probably not cool. Probably hot.

When my wife rented a Kona at Whistler, they asked her moto or not. Then they quickly pulled off the grips and changed the brake levers to the other side. I'm guessing we can't run our Shimano brake levers upside down though...

So just keep this mantra in your head "Right is Rear, Right is Rear, Right is Rear..." Best wishes and don't try to set the STRAVA KoM with backwards brakes!

 

But just think of the bragging rights potential if he lived and pulled it off!

 

Or if they are SRAM brakes, just pop off the clamp and swap them. Takes about 5 mins if you are not mechanically inclined.

Just be sure to swap them back before you return it.

 

Yes, they are SRAM Guides. You can swap them.

 

Hot damn it glows in the dark...

 

SCHWIIIIINGGG!!! Wowza - that is HAWT!

Can't wait to hear about your first venture on that bad boy. But after a GE initiation, you gotta let it eat some rocks on some Mikie-Tested chunk trails some time.

 

Have a great ride tomorrow!

 

Right after he discards those Rekons and mounts up some Minions!

 

That is one good looking bike. I think it's SOLD just on the looks alone!
Were you able to swap the brakes?

 

Looks to me like he's ready to install the rear brake.

 

Don't forget your Froggies, @Mikie Or your shoes for that matter.